AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: EnErY on April 16, 2013, 11:27:55 PM
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Hi
Not trying to be a idiot here but on turning bowls im getting a lot of end grain tear out its making life hard for me on the perfect finish on a bowl or any other form I turn im getting out most of it but when I actually finish my item I can still see it what is the secret I ask my tools are like razors I go thro the grits from 80-1200i power sand with flap wheels and use a variety of polish and oil finish but I can still see the end grain tear out very slightly is this normal?
kind regards
Bill
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Bill,
Could you put up a photo of a turned bowl showing your 'off the tool work' as well as an example of the markings you are seeing after you've sanded and applied your finish.
Cheer's
Bryan
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Before you take your last finish cut make sure you tool is nice and sharp, you could also try shear scraping, use a round ended scraper tilted to around a 45 degree angle and take light cuts on the inside of bowls on the outside do the same but use either a straight edge scraper or a round one, personally I would just make sure my tools are freshly sharpened and take very light cuts, sorby sell a lovely little shear scraper with a teardrop cutter (sorry don't know number off hand) I use it many many times, it's a great little tool and can get into some very tight spots (I have two, when one goes dull I grab the other one)
If I could offer you only one hint it would be take light cuts with sharp tools when finishing (2 or 3 light cuts are much better than 1 heavy cut when finishing!!!
Take your time and you will soon get the hang of it.
Now, have fun and get that wood spinning!!!
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Hi EnErY....if I might be so bold as to ad to this thread! I've just started turning after a period of over 20 years away from the lathe and was getting exactly the same problem as you. I use the system that ravenge just mentioned, i.e. sheer scraping. What I find essential in using this technique is this.....
Assuming you're turning inboard (over the bed-bars of the lathe) set your toolrest as far over to the left as you can and swing the handle of the scraper over to the left such that you are cutting with the left hand edge of the scraper's curved end. There's a very good reason for this! In sheer-scraping, you have to tip the scraper onto it's left edge, so that it meets the timber at an angle, rather than squarely, therefore, if you're using the tip of the scraper it could well slam down onto the rest if it digs in at all. Think about it! when the scraper is tilted onto its left edge, only the left-hand side of the scraper is supported on the toolrest.
Hold your scraper flat on the toolrest without the lathe running, such that it is square to the timber, then tilt it by about 20degrees anti-clockwise and you'll notice that the tip is no longer supported, swing the end of the handle out until the left-hand edge of the curve is scraping and now the scraper is supported behind its cut......it's far less likely to dig in!
Les
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Billy boy have you forgotten all I showed you LOL
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Thanks people ill Do a finish on The bowl Then Post it just To Show you what I mean by it .The Bowl Is 10x4in deep out of Elm
Kind regards
Bill
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Hello Bill,
if you have tried all the methods described before this post,and they did not work,try combining them with a soaking of sanding sealer or superglue. this will have the effect of hardening the timber and may make for a cleaner cut.
regards
john BHT
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Hi Bill,
Not having seen the problem, I just wonder if the problem is not actually 'tear out' but 'bruising'. This is caused by the back of the bevel damaging the wood as you make the cut, and becomes more apparent when you apply a finish. It does show more as a ring of damage, whereas tear out is quite localised but this might be your real problem.
Many turners recommend that, after sharpening, you lightly grind the back of the bevel to remove the 'sharp' edge. After all this is what you are pivoting on when cutting inside bowls. Others suggest significantly reducing the length of the bevel, to allow tighter radius of the cut. Sorry I can't send pictures of what I mean - I am in the office doing paperwork, rather than at the workshop enjoying myself. I may try and get some pics up later on.
I may have completely the wrong diagnosis but, on the other hand, this might be the answer.
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hi guys this is the offending tear out problem im getting thanks for all your concerned help and comments
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Hi EnErY...I'm inclined to agree with George...I've made a dozen or so bowls in the past and have recently returned to turning, but I keep away from those sheer-sided shapes because you can't sweep the gouge around them, so there's a lot of stop-start with different tools.
Having said all that, i admire your courage and well done for tackling such a tricky piece of timber, especially that dead knot on the rim!
Les
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hello Bill,
although I support George's reply fully, I think your problem is you are rubbing the bevel during the cut,you may have your tool ground at the wrong angle to achieve this on this design of bowl. Bevel rubbing is very important.
regards
John BHT
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As you know Bill I have made 100s of these bowls they are just a another discipline to learn well done you for trying it is very nice Bill just one small thing I can see tool marks on the bottom of the bowl it just needs a little bit more work sheer scraping is one way to get rid of the tool marks but I know its to late now as you have sold it keep em coming mate well done mind that hand
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Sold it with tool marks in it .
It is no wonder woodturning is looked down on in this country
George
Thank You For your comment and bestowing confidence in my work also making me think it was worthwhile to pay £16 pounds at Yandles show to join the AWGB to gain some worthwhile encouragement and learn to further my hobby without being shot to bits at the first hurdle .Not everybody or everything is perfect in this life. after such a long time without turning due to surgery on my left hand of which im struggling with now personally I thought it was a effort for critism not for butchery .
Regards
Bill
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This can go on forever but I will point out that if you can honestly tell me you have either thrown your first turnings on your wood burner or never accepted any kind of donation gift money for anything that is never 100% PERFECTION then I don't think your on the same planet as myself .
The amount I was given for this bowl covered the cost of the blank I used to me that is a cost effective method of keeping my hobby going im no professional turner and I don't think I ever will be but I do try my best I think on my part the matter is closed .
im retired and enjoying what im doing you must be a professional turner or you wouldn't be bothered in the fact I sold the said item its not real completion on your part im not stealing your business.
Lets put this to bed act like adults and beg to differ on opinions please ;)
Regards
Bill
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You are really getting me at The Point Of Blowing a gasket and leaving this forum I have requested in my last post to leave it at a point of stale mate now you persist on carrying it on .
I'm in no position to pay out for tuition unfortunately because of the fact I served in countries abroad in conflicts to keep rich people in social comforts that can afford such luxuries ,where veterans don't your a lucky man ,im not im asking you again lets leave it at a difference of opinion if I can fund my hobby in any way I will. it does not give you the right to put me down for it
Regards
Bill
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Hi George and Bill
Come on guys let it drop now shake hands and start again.I can see both sides of this thread but I would not like to see a falling out.
Regards John
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George,
Bill has asked for advice on his tooling problem. Any thoughts you have on what he does with his work afterwards he has not up for debate.
We are not all professional turners, but I'd hope we can all be professional enough to be polite and courteous. I know you are well meaning but your forthright manor can be disconcerting to people who don't know you.
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Hi You Guys, I do not know where Bill Lives I would like to suggest Bill tells us where he lives and someone near enough offers him a days tuition FOC
And prove to him what a good forum this is.Regards John
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George, That is a great offer and very generous of you I do hope Bill is in a position to take up this offer.
Bill, I hope you are in a position to take up George's offer he is a great Bloke and it would be a good opportunity for you.
Regards to you both John
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Hello folks,
there were a couple of ways to deal with what's coming, and rightly or wrongly I've decided to do it this way if only to stop the POST REPORTS and to save me answering them individually.
I have had two POST reports concerning George's comments. I have looked at both comments and I do not feel that either constitutes a breach of the user agreement in this instance.
Whilst I can see why his comments might be considered harsh, they do not contain abusive language or tone, and are actually just an opinion. An opinion perhaps worded poorly or a little too stridently, but an opinion nonetheless.
So as the thread stands at this time the issue is closed.
We're all supposed to be grown ups. If you don't care for an opinion expressed you can say so and ask for no further comments, or request me to remove the thread. If a request to desist is ignored then I will issue a warning to the appropriate poster. If they continue I will delete their account without notification or recourse.
Andy
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Hello Bill, I hope you have not decided to leave the Forum I was looking to see if you had made any further comments on this thread and maybe taken George up on his offer. Regards John
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I thought I try and do an honest and hopefully constructive critique of this bowl in an effort to redress some of the hurt the various misunderstandings have caused. But you may not appreciate it anyway...
Ok. First impressions?
I don't like it. The main reason I don't like it is the shape. It's a shape commonly produced by novices which I call "the dog bowl". The outer shape (IMHO) is one produced by the geometry of the tool rather than the maker's design.
The wall is probably an exact copy of the angle of the bevel under the flute of the tool. The reason the bowl ends up this shape is not by design but because upon taking the first shaping cuts the turner produces a shaving, and judging this to be a good thing allows the tool to continue to cut in the same direction. The result is a sheer-sided 45 degree(ish) bowl shape.
As turners we should be aiming to dictate our design on the wood, not allowing the tool to do the designing for us. So how do you put "intentional shape" into your work?
Imagine the same bowl blank mounted on your lathe. You've roughed it to a cylinder and are about to begin shaping it (I will assume you have either already cut the chuck holding or are happy to accommodate it later). Convention has it that you begin at the foot and turn towards the rim. The reasons for this are sound...cutting with the grain...cutting "downhill", but try from the rim towards the foot.
As the cut begins you are holding the bowl gouge close in to your body, supporting it at the toolrest with either an under or overhand grip, but your grip is light and the tool is form in to your side. The flute is at about the 1-2 o'clock position if the clock is in front of you. As the cut begins your job is to slowly swing your body to the right, feeding the tool through your fingers at an appropriate pace relative to the speed of the wood and size of the blank. In doing this you apply (gentle) pressure to the bevel which cause it to drive the cutting edge in the direction YOIU wish it to travel. Correctly done this will produce a variation on a "classic" bowl shape. Ive attached and example of the shape on an old bowl of my own. Ignore the after lathe work and concentrate on the shape.
So to the inside of the bowl...
steep sided and flat bottomed....another dog bowl shape.
The shape here can be the result of two things: a) see above - same applies and b) a wish to echo the outside for want of any other idea.
More often than not it's a result of option a. The problem then arises when the maker realises that the base of the blank is fast approaching and fears going through the bottom and so makes a 90 degree change in direction which produces a flat bottom and a sharp corner. Another result is often a heavy base as the change of direction was far too early anyway.
The remedy is to use the same principles as detailed for the outside of the bowl but where the tool position is appropriate for the interior of a typical bowl shape...
facing the bowl as if it's face is the clock the flute is at about 2. The tool is held against the body if possible, if the lathe bed won't allow then the tool handle is under the forearm and firmly supported on the rest. Assuming you have turned the outside as previously detailed your job is to copy the same shape on the inside. Let's assume a 6mm wall thickness at the rim. Follow the shape by slowly pulling your body backwards as you feed the tool through your fingers to give it the necessary depth. Repeat until the wall is 6mm all the way down and follows the shape of the outside. If your wall thickness is even you CANNOT go through the base. Another problem removed.
By choosing this simple shape you will remove the problem of the steep sides, the tool will cut cleaner leaving less torn grain, the shape will be more pleasing. Once you've mastered this you can then start to change the shape of subsequent bowls for something more adventurous with the knowledge acquired during the process.
If you still like the dog bowl shape and want to make another you'll at least be in a better position to make a cleaner-cut version.
Finish is your own preference but the rules of thumb are - good quality abrasive, start at an appropriate grit (if the tooling is poor then 80g) if better 120g Etc. Work though the grits to (we are encouraged) 400g (a utility bowl doesn't require such a fine finish IMHO). Abrade slowly without undue pressure applied. Keep the abrasive moving constantly to avoid marks. Only start the 2nd grit when ALL the tooling marks are removed. The following grits remove the abrasive marks of each subsequent grit. Seal as preferred and final finish of oil, wax Etc.
None of this is cast in stone but will help. 1 to 1 is the best way of learning. But in the absence of 1 to 1 you can use a good book, DVD, or YouTube (but knowing what's good on there is another problem). Ask for recommendations on here. Mark Sanger has some good vids on youtube, and I have some, and there are others.
I hope you don't feel offended by this. You can only get help with a constructive critique and I believe this is constructive.
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Andy, I think this is a fair and considered reply.
Bill it was probably me that took your £16 at Yandles. you must be fairly local to me so get in touch at:- swrep@awgb.co.uk and I am sure something can be worked out.
Best regards
John BHT
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I thought I try and do an honest and hopefully constructive critique of this bowl in an effort to redress some of the hurt the various misunderstandings have caused. But you may not appreciate it anyway...
Ok. First impressions?
I don't like it. The main reason I don't like it is the shape. It's a shape commonly produced by novices which I call "the dog bowl". The outer shape (IMHO) is one produced by the geometry of the tool rather than the maker's design.
The wall is probably an exact copy of the angle of the bevel under the flute of the tool. The reason the bowl ends up this shape is not by design but because upon taking the first shaping cuts the turner produces a shaving, and judging this to be a good thing allows the tool to continue to cut in the same direction. The result is a sheer-sided 45 degree(ish) bowl shape.
As turners we should be aiming to dictate our design on the wood, not allowing the tool to do the designing for us. So how do you put "intentional shape" into your work?
Imagine the same bowl blank mounted on your lathe. You've roughed it to a cylinder and are about to begin shaping it (I will assume you have either already cut the chuck holding or are happy to accommodate it later). Convention has it that you begin at the foot and turn towards the rim. The reasons for this are sound...cutting with the grain...cutting "downhill", but try from the rim towards the foot.
As the cut begins you are holding the bowl gouge close in to your body, supporting it at the toolrest with either an under or overhand grip, but your grip is light and the tool is form in to your side. The flute is at about the 1-2 o'clock position if the clock is in front of you. As the cut begins your job is to slowly swing your body to the right, feeding the tool through your fingers at an appropriate pace relative to the speed of the wood and size of the blank. In doing this you apply (gentle) pressure to the bevel which cause it to drive the cutting edge in the direction YOIU wish it to travel. Correctly done this will produce a variation on a "classic" bowl shape. Ive attached and example of the shape on an old bowl of my own. Ignore the after lathe work and concentrate on the shape.
So to the inside of the bowl...
steep sided and flat bottomed....another dog bowl shape.
The shape here can be the result of two things: a) see above - same applies and b) a wish to echo the outside for want of any other idea.
More often than not it's a result of option a. The problem then arises when the maker realises that the base of the blank is fast approaching and fears going through the bottom and so makes a 90 degree change in direction which produces a flat bottom and a sharp corner. Another result is often a heavy base as the change of direction was far too early anyway.
The remedy is to use the same principles as detailed for the outside of the bowl but where the tool position is appropriate for the interior of a typical bowl shape...
facing the bowl as if it's face is the clock the flute is at about 2. The tool is held against the body if possible, if the lathe bed won't allow then the tool handle is under the forearm and firmly supported on the rest. Assuming you have turned the outside as previously detailed your job is to copy the same shape on the inside. Let's assume a 6mm wall thickness at the rim. Follow the shape by slowly pulling your body backwards as you feed the tool through your fingers to give it the necessary depth. Repeat until the wall is 6mm all the way down and follows the shape of the outside. If your wall thickness is even you CANNOT go through the base. Another problem removed.
By choosing this simple shape you will remove the problem of the steep sides, the tool will cut cleaner leaving less torn grain, the shape will be more pleasing. Once you've mastered this you can then start to change the shape of subsequent bowls for something more adventurous with the knowledge acquired during the process.
If you still like the dog bowl shape and want to make another you'll at least be in a better position to make a cleaner-cut version.
Finish is your own preference but the rules of thumb are - good quality abrasive, start at an appropriate grit (if the tooling is poor then 80g) if better 120g Etc. Work though the grits to (we are encouraged) 400g (a utility bowl doesn't require such a fine finish IMHO). Abrade slowly without undue pressure applied. Keep the abrasive moving constantly to avoid marks. Only start the 2nd grit when ALL the tooling marks are removed. The following grits remove the abrasive marks of each subsequent grit. Seal as preferred and final finish of oil, wax Etc.
None of this is cast in stone but will help. 1 to 1 is the best way of learning. But in the absence of 1 to 1 you can use a good book, DVD, or YouTube (but knowing what's good on there is another problem). Ask for recommendations on here. Mark Sanger has some good vids on youtube, and I have some, and there are others.
I hope you don't feel offended by this. You can only get help with a constructive critique and I believe this is constructive.
Thank You Andy This is The Sort Of critic I was looking for it Is both helpful informative and not scathing this is the sort of ideal information im looking for not to be given a hauling over the coals for selling the item
Kind regards
Bill
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Good. Glad that's what you wanted..
Now if we can make that the last time we mention the other thing we can all get along better and people can stop sending me post reports and taking up time I can not afford to waste.
safe turning
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Very valid point made early on about the bevel angle grind and cutting edge, which are all important, but to the beginner just as much a mystery as turning itself.
One thing I may just question is the Lathe speed ... just how fast are you turning, to slow and if the cut is heavy you'll get more tear out from a forced cut and this can be compounded by more cuts as the tool will bounce across the surface, it's to restart with a sharp tool and fine cuts to cut away the damage.
Just wondering.
Cheers David
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David a question re lathe seed....
Obviously within comfort and safety zones....
Is it better to have as high a speed as possible when encountering tear out to try and reduce this?
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David a question re lathe seed....
Obviously within comfort and safety zones....
Is it better to have as high a speed as possible when encountering tear out to try and reduce this?
Safe speed is always a question, in order to explan the best and too all that it involves, I'll use these guideline from Craft Supplies: http://blog.woodturnerscatalog.com/2012/08/safe-wood-lathe-speeds/ (http://blog.woodturnerscatalog.com/2012/08/safe-wood-lathe-speeds/) .. credit to Craft Supplies USA.
My question on speed was more as a consideration to help understand if it related to Bill's problem of tear out, we need as many factors as possible to decide as to what could be the cause etc.
Cheers David
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David a question re lathe seed....
Obviously within comfort and safety zones....
Is it better to have as high a speed as possible when encountering tear out to try and reduce this?
Safe speed is always a question, in order to explan the best and too all that it involves, I'll use these guideline from Craft Supplies: http://blog.woodturnerscatalog.com/2012/08/safe-wood-lathe-speeds/ (http://blog.woodturnerscatalog.com/2012/08/safe-wood-lathe-speeds/) .. credit to Craft Supplies USA.
My question on speed was more as a consideration to help understand if it related to Bill's problem of tear out, we need as many factors as possible to decide as to what could be the cause etc.
Cheers David
Please please be careful of using a formula as shown in the link or a table as often appears in books. There are so many factors involved in setting an appropriate speed that formulae and tables don't take any account of. IMHO they should not be replied upon.
Mark
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When teaching I do not like to quote lathe speeds as the most important point it is to be both comfortable and safe,
If you are encountering tear out on end grain there is generally two reasons a blunt tool or poor tool presentation,I will add a caveat many folks turn at to higher speed and generally a slower speed will produce better results hoever it does require good tool control.
I might also suggest you apply a coat of wax before taking a final cut with a freshly sharpened tool.
I agree with Mark Hancock regarding the use of speed tables as there are far to many variables.
Nick Arnull.
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Hello Bill,
on re-reading my comments earlier on this post I realised my fingers were typing quicker than my brain was thinking, I wrote:-
I think your problem is you are rubbing the bevel during the cut,you may have your tool ground at the wrong angle to achieve this on this design of bowl. Bevel rubbing is very important.
It should read:- I think your problem is you are not rubbing the bevel during the cut etc .etc.
Regards
John
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My 'speed table' is in my head... It's called fear! :-[
I have started turning at higher speeds as my confidence has grown BUT still keep to mid range speeds (my comfort zone) even when I know that I could run little higher speed.
I have an issue with some wood that is very 'seasoned' and has started rot in places. It turns really nicely and is solid enough but the end grain even with sharp tools, light cuts still results in tear out.
I turned two bowls and had the exact same problem on both. I have yet to experiment in ways to try and stabilise or harden the end grain prior to taking final cuts but there are some interesting ideas on this thread, thanks!
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I have put a link in the Web site, videos section, but here is one from the same site that may be of use and goes through the problems.
http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/torn-grain.html (http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/torn-grain.html)
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As with Andy's reply, I'd like to thank both Marks and Nick as well for their valid knowledge and for their time to post on what is a grey area of speed (lathe that is) for some this is the only place of contact, for others it can be passed onto them by someome, I learnt this or I do such, then it could just be from a book, for some we have set 3, 4, 5, upto 10 speed ranges, with VS what 0-3000 upto 4000+ rpm on some.
Yes given a piece maybe 6" dia or any other dia. to that regard, doesn't take into acount the piece could be anything from 2" to 6"+ in thickness, we can find, read and hear all kinds of formulae and tables, but it is what your safe and comfortable with that is important at all times.
My question with Bill was what speed he used, was more as a consideration to the many factors involed, just as it is that he was using Elm, so is speed relevant to tear out, I'd not considered it to be as such.
And Bill your important to us all, where are you, keep posting.
Cheers David
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David
yes speed can be directly related to tear out depending upon the wood/chip formation of the species, how dry it is, interlocking grain etc etc.
All materials have a speed by which they like to be cut. So on top of tool presentation and sharpness as already mentioned then feed of the tool and speed can also be an issue.
Even with the sharpest of tools and correct presentation if traversing the tool is too rapid for the wood beyond the point of efficient chip formation then the fibres can tear out.
So it comes down to geometry, sharpness, speed and feed, this is in turn dependant on wood species and the respective chip formation which in turn can alter the geometry of the tool use.
IE a soft wood cuts easily with an acute angle whereas a very dense timber or alternative material will chip better with an obtuse angle and at time negative rake.
Even the shape of a bowl can make a difference to finish with some woods.
This is why the charts as mentioned are of little real purpose.
The point I am hoping to get across is there is no simple answer :) and while yes forums are useful there are many in depth answers and solutions that only a book, DVD or tuition with in depth explanations and practical application can answer.
Often (certainly with me) these books have to be read/ referred back to more than once for it to sink in, such explanations are difficult and lengthy to clarify in a forum and often answers only confuse, are not presented in a concise clear way/especially without diagrams to be of use, and end up being another hurdle ( although they are posted with good intention and much knowledge) some things have to be shown.
So in short yes speed can have an effect on tear out if it is considered along with with feed rate, material/wood species, tool geometry for the material/species etc.
There is a very good book that ( yes I know it is a book) :) that goes into this in much depth and after reading it several times made me realise that we have to fully understand the substrate we are cutting (wood) to know how to present tools/cut it etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Wood-Craftsmans-Guide-Technology/dp/1561583588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366991150&sr=1-1&keywords=understanding+wood+technology (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Wood-Craftsmans-Guide-Technology/dp/1561583588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366991150&sr=1-1&keywords=understanding+wood+technology)
it was one of the best investments I ever made. In fact I would say probably the best investment in my development as a woodturner as once we really understand about wood then we can start to understand how to get the best out of it with our tools. Without this knowledge it is like trying to bake a cake in the dark without a recipe. :)
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David
yes speed can be directly related to tear out depending upon the wood/chip formation of the species, how dry it is, interlocking grain etc etc.
All materials have a speed by which they like to be cut. So on top of tool presentation and sharpness as already mentioned then feed of the tool and speed can also be an issue.
Even with the sharpest of tools and correct presentation if traversing the tool is too rapid for the wood beyond the point of efficient chip formation then the fibres can tear out.
So it comes down to geometry, sharpness, speed and feed, this is in turn dependant on wood species and the respective chip formation which in turn can alter the geometry of the tool use.
IE a soft wood cuts easily with an acute angle whereas a very dense timber or alternative material will chip better with an obtuse angle and at time negative rake.
Even the shape of a bowl can make a difference to finish with some woods.
This is why the charts as mentioned are of little real purpose.
The point I am hoping to get across is there is no simple answer :) and while yes forums are useful there are many in depth answers and solutions that only a book, DVD or tuition with in depth explanations and practical application can answer.
Often (certainly with me) these books have to be read/ referred back to more than once for it to sink in, such explanations are difficult and lengthy to clarify in a forum and often answers only confuse, are not presented in a concise clear way/especially without diagrams to be of use, and end up being another hurdle ( although they are posted with good intention and much knowledge) some things have to be shown.
So in short yes speed can have an effect on tear out if it is considered along with with feed rate, material/wood species, tool geometry for the material/species etc.
There is a very good book that ( yes I know it is a book) :) that goes into this in much depth and after reading it several times made me realise that we have to fully understand the substrate we are cutting (wood) to know how to present tools/cut it etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Wood-Craftsmans-Guide-Technology/dp/1561583588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366991150&sr=1-1&keywords=understanding+wood+technology (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Wood-Craftsmans-Guide-Technology/dp/1561583588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366991150&sr=1-1&keywords=understanding+wood+technology)
it was one of the best investments I ever made. In fact I would say probably the best investment in my development as a woodturner as once we really understand about wood then we can start to understand how to get the best out of it with our tools. Without this knowledge it is like trying to bake a cake in the dark without a recipe. :)
Mark your a gentleman, an of many valid words, you expess it but than I was coming across, it is a factor, it was with metal turning a fast feed on to slow a speed riped the metal, the opposite happens with faster speed.
Thank you for the link, get it before demand puts the price up ... ;D ..
David
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I think that there can be no substitution for taking some tuition...
Unfortunately some are not in position to take advantage of this so stupid questions have to be asked from this side of the channel on forums where the experts can give some guidance/opinions.
For my tear out problem, mostly with some very dry, aged, rotted acacia it has to be trial and error.
I have two bowls turned, both have end grain tear out. I believe, from reading comments and ggl'ing that it may be the softness of the wood combined with my tooling (I don't have any tear out issues with other woods now).
Having such a vast amount of acacia I really want to try and find a solution to this as the wood is fantastic and takes a finish really well.
I have left the bowls with quite a fat belly so that I can apply waxes/glues etc in an attempt to stabilise/harden the the wood
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Hello Bill,
on re-reading my comments earlier on this post I realised my fingers were typing quicker than my brain was thinking, I wrote:-
I think your problem is you are rubbing the bevel during the cut,you may have your tool ground at the wrong angle to achieve this on this design of bowl. Bevel rubbing is very important.
It should read:- I think your problem is you are not rubbing the bevel during the cut etc .etc.
Regards
John
Hi John
Thank You For Taking Time out To rectify your Post. I since Made a natural edged cherry bowl which I am very Happy with It has also raised some good comments on another forum reading all that has been posted here on the subject I think I might have got rid of it with cherry question cherry vs elm is there a difference in the plan of attack being different timbers?
Regards
Bill
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Hi all.
I know I drone on about this but in my opinion there is no substitute for tuition from a good tutor.
When I started out 12 years ago I went to Don White http://www.don-white-woodturning.co.uk/ for tuition and one of the first things he said to me was George I am going to save you 25 years.When I said how are you going to do that Don he answered I am going to teach you not to make the same mistakes I have made in the last 25 years.
I think the small cost of tuition is the best investment you could make in woodturning.
You can have the best lathe and tools in the world but if you don't know how to use them properly you will always struggle.
Regards George
That be true ... but honestly there is nout better than getting off on the right foot at all times... Of the very things that are involed today with any hobby alone, is cost .. I know as do many others and £130 ever in 1996 for 2 days with Oliver Plant looked like a lot on top of and not considering the almost £1000 spent on lathe, tools, grinder... well all the basics to get under way ... as for the lessons, well you learnt all the right basics, mastered some and having loved the whole thing go away happy, if not bitten by the bug .. a turner I'll be .. ;D .. bad habits you start yourself .. :D ... maybe be not knowingly and hard to break if you take lessons later on. Then for some it's location that limits being able to get tuition, thankfully theres internet access and a strong band of helpful fellow turners .. ;) .. who will share their advice to help.
The best .. like everything there are lathes and I've seen and used tools that don't induce the best results, I know ... the man who blames his tools, but be fair the tools are out there, they work, they cut, but the form and profile are cr.. I'll not name or shame. Adds another element to the list of why things can go wrong.
Cheers David
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Hello Bill,
yes there will be a difference between Elm and Cherry, there is also a difference between different types of Cherry.
I would suggest that when you get near to the bottom of the bowl just turn the lathe by hand slowly and with a freshly sharpened chisel follow the cut through(go through the motions) Look to see if the bevel will rub all the way through the cut as some bowl gouges are ground to different angles.Observe which part of the tool is doing the cutting, you may need to regrind to a different angle. The flute should be pointing to the 2 o'clock-ish position and should arc across the bowl. You may find it easier to cut a bowl with a nice even curve to it rather that one with a dramatic change of curve.Cut towards the middle of the bowl. Something that may help when you sand is to spray a fine mist of water over it and let it dry and then sand. This will raise the grain slightly and make it easier for your abrasive to cut any offending fibres, try this at each subsequent grit.
Good luck.
Regards
John BHT
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Hi David.
I appreciate there is a cost to tuition but I believe woodturning is still a cheap hobby even with the cost of tuition.
Our local Golf club charges £800 00 per year for membership at least with woodturning you only pay once and if you get good enough you can sell your work for decent money.
Regards George
Someone has to pay for cutting all that grass ... And I've never understood the want to hit a little ball that you could so easily loss .. then again the famous names can make big money ... more than a bowl of mine ..
See you on the T''
Cheers David