AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Wood spinner on April 17, 2020, 06:29:08 PM
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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Woodturner-claimed-wood-very-rare-Burr-Elm-nest-of-bowls-by-Andy-F/233556126453?hash=item366107aaf5:g:gJgAAOSwTBRekeFm
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Looking at his other work foir sale I assume it should be £350. Never know thoiugh someone might pay LOL.
Pete
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Why not, Tracey Emin can sell an unmade bed for £2.2 Million, on that basis this is a bargain! Though I suspect there was a stutter on the 0 key, I can only wish him the best of luck, adding that zero could do us all a power of good.
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The seller is evidently not the maker, and is trying his hand at making a big profit from those gullible enough to think that ebay is cheap.
That said, if he does manage to convince the general public that woodturnings are worth this much, it can only help the rest of us trying to sell our work.
Unfortunately he has not sold any woodturnings to date, but then again he has only just started listing them. One to watch maybe?
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|I've got a big Elm blank in the workshop, if this sells I might get around to turning it
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There was a white painted pine dog bed in Harrods that was OK, jointed with dowels nothing fancy priced at over £2000. So people will pay, if you can get into the right market. Just not sure Ebay is the right place... will watch with interest though.
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Why shouldn't the bowls be for sale at £3500?
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To often Wood-turners sell their product far to cheap at craft fairs,etc, the cost is not just about the cost of the wood and turning time even at minimum wages its far more.
Time selecting timber, time cutting blank, time packing, time travailing, time cleaning workshop, deprecation on capital equipment, cost of disposables, cost of premises, cost of stall, time spent selling etc , all thing a successful business would take into consideration but some how the majority of turners don't take into consideration.
Some turners moan when the sell via a Gallery who add on 40% 50% or even double the have rent, staff, fittings, etc all to pay they have done their home work profit is what is what keeps them going
Wood turning is fortunate it can be a profession and hobby but selling something just to cover the cost of a blank is letting everybody down, If the hobby was Golf its not just the cost of the ball.
All food for thought and in these times of Lockdown just do a simple actual cost, taking in the variables, post some results !!!
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One of my articles in the magazine covered this very point Michael and I recieved emails from people basically disagreeing and in one case telling me I had no right to 'dictate' what people sold their work for. My argument has always been that they are undermining the perceived value of the craft / art if they sell just to recoup costs. Having said that I think that if the seller on ebay was actually asking for that price (which ir appears he isn't based on cost of other items in his shop) it is perhaps ambitious and optimistic LOL. I have however seen artistic woodturning for sale at that sort of price albeit of far better quality and a higher standard of design and artistic merit.,
Pete
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It is always interesting to see what gets put up on ebay and its sister sites. Along those lines, can we criticise this seller whose work is not particularly good standard but at least he is the actual maker.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Turned-Sapele-Pot-Wooden-Pot-Wooden-Bowl-Wedding-Anniversary-Gift/333407007797 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Turned-Sapele-Pot-Wooden-Pot-Wooden-Bowl-Wedding-Anniversary-Gift/333407007797)
PS. Have a look at the inside!
Goiing back to the original item, I have just had an email from ebay, offering me the item at the discounted price of £3000. Has anyone else had a similar offer?
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Seeing that first post means I can now sell this PIECE (https://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,6310.0.html) for double what I intended so now at a tenner. ;D ;D ;D.
(Before anyone takes this serious I am joking as I am sure there are some who will take that price literally)
Seriously I could never sell mine for the price that some sell theirs for but at the same time do not believe in giving it away I have recently had a complete look at my pricing structure and increased prices to a more realistic level, still not to the level of some on here.
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I agree with Paul's comment.
The eBay posting is from a Gallery in London where Andy F is a guest artist.
https://www.aalondongallery.com/shop?page=5 (https://www.aalondongallery.com/shop?page=5)
The gallery market cannot be compared to the craft fair market. They have different customer and maker profiles so pricing is different. With sales through galleries the maker will be lucky to get 50% of the retail price.
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Just read through this thread. The photo in the first link is the same as one of the photos in this link. https://www.aalondongallery.com/product-page/woodturner-claimed-wood-very-rare-burr-elm-nest-of-bowls-by-andy-f
So a gallery selling at less than Ebay.
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The gallery have obviously added the additional fees charged by Ebay and possibly Paypal too to the total price. Any sensible seller would factor in all costs when arriving at a price.
Isn't the definition of an artist one who can no longer afford to buy their own work? ;)
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and what on earth is claimed wood?
Duncan
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and what on earth is claimed wood?
Duncan
It means the gallery can't be sued if the wood is not what they said. It is often a good idea to add "I think" or "probably" to a timber
description
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I thought in the context used, they meant the turner had processed the wood from raw, as opposed to reclaimed wood where it was recovered/recycled. Galleries are a bit like estate agents when it comes to inventive language!
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I do not wish to court controversy here but it appears that those that cannot believe the prices asked for are mainly those that do not turn for a living, and therein lies one of the biggest problems of the professional turner. Hobby turners can take as long as they want to make a piece and sell it just to cover the cost of the timber in order to maintain their hobby whereas professional turners do not have that luxury.
Some hobby turners do produce top quality work and in my humble opinion if they have put the work in to produce a quality piece they can sell for what they want. Others however that cannot be bothered to advance their skills and make quality items should ne be allowed to sell.
The piece in this item was made by a talented turner and if it is being sold by a gallery it is the gallery that sets the ( Final) price.We should applaud the maker for having a piece that attracts such a premium.
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I think that the turner's other work suggests to me that his/her pricing strategy is reasonable and realistic. This nest is significantly higher priced than the other pieces seen but the asking price would rise exponentially by the time the gallery commission is included. Burr Elm can command a high price and the initial lump may have cost a lot. Anyone who is non plussed by the price of this piece has not seen other pieces of comparable merit in galleries with an asking price several times as large.
Like Pete, I have written about pricing work based on my few years of turning experience. I have my own system which works for me but underlying that is the notion that I value the need to place woodturning in a realistic context and not to de-value the work of other professional woodturners as well as the time, experience and cost which has gone into a piece.
ATB John
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I don't think there is a problem with the gallery price, well I don't have a problem with it anyway, just a bit surprised to see it on Ebay. I do have to say yes there is a problem with turners under pricing their work, but when Ikea does a 12" wooden bowl for under £20 no matter how crap it is it hurts all pricing.
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This thread/topic has raised many issues that have been around all the years I have been turning professionally which is now over 30 years and by that I mean earning my living from my turning be it producing, demonstrating or tutoring so that I can pay the mortgage, pay the bills and put food on the table.
My way of thinking nowadays is that woodturning in the UK is mainly considered as a hobby pastime with work produced being sold at craft fairs at prices that under values the skills of all turners because many are hobbyists just wanting a few more pennies to buy more wood to turn. Generally they are retired and/or have another source of income i.e. pension so thoughts of operating as a business and making an income are not considered. Consequently Joe public expects ridiculously low prices when buying turned work so those at these selling events who are trying to make a living have to compete price wise to make any sales/income. And so the issue continues. It’s not helped by the lack of support or acknowledgement of the craft by the Arts Council and Craft Council – sorry I don’t know if there is any difference between the two as I gave up on them years ago. I had many conversations about this issue with Ray (Key) and can give a number of examples to support this claim of lack of support but won’t here. Having written that it saddens me that many viewing this won’t know about Ray and what he shrived to do for the craft; this forum would not exist if it wasn’t for Ray. It interesting that in other countries this isn’t such a big issue and it explains why many of our top UK turners sell and work mainly abroad. I know of a number of turners who have even emigrated because it makes good business sense to do so regardless of the cost in doing so.
So back to comments in the thread.
1. Ikea bowls; Those buying such items wouldn’t be considering the items from Andy F – different market place different customer base
2. Time taken to produce item; Irrelevant in this case! That presumes turning is just a production process and one applies basic accounting principles to price i.e. material cost, labour cost, overheads costing plus mark up. If a production turner then yes time is a factor but not for one off pieces of work as in this case.
3. Gallery sets the final price; Wrong!. It depends on the relationship between the gallery and the artist. In my case I set the retail price and accepted the consequences regarding commission and VAT. My reasoning for this approach was that I didn’t want to upset my regular customers. Imagine one buying a piece and then seeing a similar piece priced less elsewhere simply because of a different commission rate at a different gallery.
4. Price; Pricing is a game when making one off pieces. Can anyone reading this produce exactly the same item? I’ll answer that for you – NO. The next question is what reputation/respect do you have? If recognised as a turning artist (hate that word) there is a premium to be added to the price. A great example of this I found years ago when the Del Mano gallery existed as a physical outlet (who has heard of this gallery?). I saw a piece by David Ellesworth (know who he is?) on their web site. The price was $20,000!
Rant over and I do apologise to anyone that feels offended by my comments. That never was my intention. I only wished to give another view point.
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Today's world is upside down if the gallery is closed as it should be sell it any way you can e-bay etc and if someone wants it great. Regarding Ikea I make Windsor Chairs and customers are happy to pay my price which is 10 time Ikea hopefully mine will be an air-loom Ikea ???
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Today's world is upside down if the gallery is closed as it should be sell it any way you can e-bay etc and if someone wants it great. Regarding Ikea I make Windsor Chairs and customers are happy to pay my price which is 10 time Ikea hopefully mine will be an air-loom Ikea ???
Spot on! Your customers know what they are getting, chairs made with the heart and soul of the maker and that is part of what they are buying.
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Far from being offended Mark much of what you are saying is what I have ben trying to get across (unsuccessfully) to turners for some time. You are far more succint than me. My view is that as long as there are turners willing to sell their work for cost then the craft / art in this country will always be seen as something of little value. I know of the Del Mano Gallery and have heard of Dave Ellesworth and it is a shame that few if any such veunues exist in this country. I tried for some years to get my work into galleries and ended up assuming I simply wasn't good enough until one (n ameless) pointed out that wood doesn't sell as an art form very well. When I asked why they said it was because it was so easily obtained cheaply in the church hall fairs, their words not mine. 'nuff said.
Pete
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Mark your mention of Ray Key made me smile, one of my most endearing memories of Ray was when I was on the AWGB committee at one of the seminars in Loughborough. Ray sat in the office holding court with some of the world's great turners around him and I was spellbound (and a little bit star struck I must admit)and I didn't want to go to work for fear of missing what he was saying.
I take on board your comments about setting the price and I have to say having read them I agree with you.
Pete one gallery that I approached told me if my work was not priced above £600 each piece not to bother contacting them. I suppose I could have upped the price on some pieces ( I have sold work in the past for £5,000 plus)but the pieces I had at the time were not worth that and it would not have been right to artificially inflate the price just to get it in the gallery.
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Far from being offended Mark much of what you are saying is what I have ben trying to get across (unsuccessfully) to turners for some time. You are far more succint than me. My view is that as long as there are turners willing to sell their work for cost then the craft / art in this country will always be seen as something of little value. I know of the Del Mano Gallery and have heard of Dave Ellesworth and it is a shame that few if any such veunues exist in this country. I tried for some years to get my work into galleries and ended up assuming I simply wasn't good enough until one (n ameless) pointed out that wood doesn't sell as an art form very well. When I asked why they said it was because it was so easily obtained cheaply in the church hall fairs, their words not mine. 'nuff said.
Pete
Thank you. I spent years trying to get into galleries in the UK. Spent a fortune on photographs (this was before the age of the internet and digital technology) and sending off intro letters etc. Few bothered to respond. For me it was a combination of events/circumstances that made me realise that wood crafts aren't represented in galleries in the UK and that I was wasting my time. I can count on one hand the number of galleries that show wood art in the UK, know what they are talking about and are worth considering to represent your work. The only advice I can give after 30 years is try to educate gallery owners and keep trying. Occasionally you get one open to new opportunities. I had one like this in Cheltenham which proved very lucrative but unfortunately because of other issues totally unrelated the business closed and I lost a great income source.
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Mark your mention of Ray Key made me smile, one of my most endearing memories of Ray was when I was on the AWGB committee at one of the seminars in Loughborough. Ray sat in the office holding court with some of the world's great turners around him and I was spellbound (and a little bit star struck I must admit)and I didn't want to go to work for fear of missing what he was saying.
I take on board your comments about setting the price and I have to say having read them I agree with you.
Pete one gallery that I approached told me if my work was not priced above £600 each piece not to bother contacting them. I suppose I could have upped the price on some pieces ( I have sold work in the past for £5,000 plus)but the pieces I had at the time were not worth that and it would not have been right to artificially inflate the price just to get it in the gallery.
You say your work what not worth that. Your work is worth what people will pay for it. An example from my experience. I had a piece in a very prestigious exhibition which is still going. It didn't sell. I took it after the exhibition to a well known gallery and was advised to increase the price 3 fold. It sold within a fortnight. I think I said this previously by if not I'll say it here; pricing is a game. I learnt early on in my crfat fair days if a piece doesn't sell you up the price rather than dropping it. It worked 95% of the time :-)
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There is of course the other side to this. I turn because I enjoy it, l sell pieces at those "horrible church fairs etc" (The money for the tables go to local) causes) I sell at that dreaded price that covers the cost of the wood and whatever else I have used.
Does that devalue the art form, l don't think so. What some of you don't seem to be able to do is separate the art form from monetary value.
I get that a lot of you make a living from turning wood and your prices need to reflect that. But please don't say us "non professionals
devalue the art form.
Why do so many professionals, go to clubs to teach those of us that devalue the art, if we are only going to devalue it more?
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Why do so many professionals, go to clubs to teach those of us that devalue the art, if we are only going to devalue it more?
Although it is nice going to clubs to earn part of my income(will this ever happen again?)it is also nice to help others to become better turners thereby increasing the value of the work they make.But also if you are good at making something you enjoy the process more.Well I do anyway.
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Not sure anyone has used the phrase 'orrible church hall fairs ' LOL. They domhave theirplace but if we wish to promote our art / craft then we need to aim at a different type of market. The shows that we do are aimed at customers who often collect art and craft work, are onlt interested in quality work that has a style and are prepared to pay for it. It is perha[ps the difference between going to Primark and Harrods. You don't expect to get the same sort of quality in both but there is a place for both. Most people assunme that if you pay less you get less and whilst this may not always be true it is a basic fact of life. Hence if people see a bowl for sale for £15 they assume that is all it is worth not that they are getting a bargain. I have seen work for sale in lower end markets that re being sold cheaper than the blank would have cost which is perhaps an extreme but at least charge for your expertise, time etc. I have this little sign up at shows and it always surprises me the number of people who comment positively and ask to copy and use it.
Pete
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The problem is that mechanisation, and industrial scale copy lathes have killed a huge part of the turners industry, just as chipboard and angle brackets killed the cabinet makers industry, but to some extent worse, because you can feed a copy lathe stair spindles and it will do a better job of replicating that than the best turners exactly similar versions.
This leaves jobbing turners competing for those few clients who appreciate that "exactly similar" is actually a very desirable quality, and those customers are the ones with an artistic eye.
All this feeds into the spiral of all remaining turners must be artists, which they (I) am / are not. Yes I can replicate an artistic piece, and because the medium we work in is unique on almost every piece, it will be a unique piece, but can I conceptualise and create it? well yes sometimes I accidently come up with something, but that is not the same as being an artist.
Way back up the top of the thread I referenced the "Unmade bed" being worth £2.2 million, personally I feel that particular piece of art is a rip off of Procul Harem's song lyrics. That aside the price was paid and the value established, probably true that the removal costs between each exhibition cost more than the materials themselves, so material cost is irrelevant.
As for the professionals, sorry it isn't mostly the amateurs that killed the market, it is the machines that forced the jobbing turners to need to be craftsmen and even artists. Pricing is hard to figure out, I was once told twice material cost for a beginner 3 x when good, that doesn't cut it in the real world, so I just look at what others are charging and stay in the same sort of zone, and aim to improve my turning not for the chance of extra monetary reward, but because doing what I feel is good things with precious timber is my main objective. 10 years in and I am after learning how to make a hollow form to my satisfaction this year, have made a start and almost got the hang of setting up and using the tool that will help me achieve that, by the end of the year I will make something I like, it will be worth £28,000 I suspect, reasonable for a years work?
Where was I going with this rambling... Oh yes...
In the world of art many musicians, and turners go unnoticed, while others soar to popularity and the money follows the fame. If you are lucky enough to be Justin Bieber (or any other known name) get what you can while you can, most us us are in pub bands covering expenses, and having fun.
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I have an email today from EBay, saying that the price is now reduced by £250, now yours for £3250
Ron
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I suppose the issue is what does it actually sell for. But individual pieces by other craftspeople, such as jewellery or even hand-made jumpers can sell for sums in the thousands. Certainly I wonder if more pieces should be in the hundreds rather than the tens!
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I think a lot of things would be at least in the hundreds if we charged apropriately for them. Think of an hourly rate. add cost of material, plus peripherals such as polish, lacquer, abrasive, and an alllowance for tools etc. Not many things would be a tenner would they? I agree that a professional would be charging less for labout as they would (presumably) be quicker but thta would probably be balanced by charging a higher rate due to experience etc. One turner I know charges £40 an hour, most of us less but anyone selling should sgtart at £10 an hour minimum IMHO.
Pete
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I think a lot of things would be at least in the hundreds if we charged apropriately for them. Think of an hourly rate. add cost of material, plus peripherals such as polish, lacquer, abrasive, and an alllowance for tools etc. Not many things would be a tenner would they? I agree that a professional would be charging less for labout as they would (presumably) be quicker but thta would probably be balanced by charging a higher rate due to experience etc. One turner I know charges £40 an hour, most of us less but anyone selling should sgtart at £10 an hour minimum IMHO.
Pete
Like almost anything that people make it is only worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it.
Another argument is why should something individually made only be the Provence of the "middle classes" because that is what it would become if we all looked to sell at the rates suggested.
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The working classes are often the ones with money nowadays LOL. The trick is not just geting the price right it is also targeting the right market. Chucking stuff up for sale on etsy for example may work for some but it is very hit and miss.
Pete