AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => Tool tips & reviews => Topic started by: Mike313 on November 01, 2018, 05:22:03 PM
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Being a newcomer to woodturning, I was browsing through some websites reading about tools. As you do.
I was aware that tools, particularly in times past, were made from carbon steel, which can be sharpened to a very fine edge but needs regular sharpening.
As I understand it, in more recent times, high speed steel is more common and the preferred choice of many, as it holds an edge longer but is not capable of being sharpened to quite as fine an edge as carbon steel.
All well and good.
NOW I have read about cryogenically treated steel which Henry Taylor Company claim to stay sharper even longer, and then there are those produced by Crown made by powder metallurgy, and yet others by Robert Sorby that are coated in titanium nitride.
I hasten to say that I am NOT in the market for tools or looking to buy the latest gizmo. I'm quite happy with my old tools :)
But, in the interest of learning, I would be very interested in hearing what turners think of the latter three - cryo, PM and T.nitride - particularly those who have used them. What are they like in use? Are they worth the extra money?
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I use a lot of the cryo tools from Henry Taylor, and they are definitely worth the extra money. Haven't used any of the PM or titanium nitride coated ones, so can't speak for them.
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My main stock of tools is HSS, but I am beginning to buy Cryo tools and, like Fuzzy, I am impressed by the extended life of the edge between sharpenings. Admittedly, they cost more, but given the lower frequency of sharpening, they are going to last much longer and work out cheaper in the long run.
Les
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Mike I quite like the HSS tools but still use some of my old Carbon steel chisels. I admit to owning 2 Cryo tools, a bowl gouge and a spindle gouge. Now it may just be because these are my newest tools in the box but they have become my favourites. I can't say that I have actually noticed any difference between them and the HSS but then at this stage of the game sharpening for me is a habit and happens all the time. I have not tried the other types and must say that I probably never will as I will struggle to use up all of my existing tools before I shuffle off of this mortal coil.
What I will say though is every tool will benefit from being correctly sharpened and that will seriously improve your turning ability which in turn will help you to enjoy it all the more.
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Hss for me
Re sharpening this is a minefield , and can cost you big time , in money and accelerated tool loss /
Shaping a tool the first time cuts away steel , once you have the profile a quick sharpen extends the tool life
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Cryogenic treatment and powder metallurgy are supposed to give a finer structure to the steel which is supposed to hold it's edge better. From my experience it makes a small improvement but not a huge difference.
Titanium nitride coating never seemed to have any merit because one of the two surfaces of any edge is ground and therefore has no coating!
The various alloys such as ASP 2030 / 2060, V10, V15 and M42 all claim to increase edge durability. I can't say I've used all of them but the ones I have tried do seem to hold their edge better. Some of these alloys don't give such a sharp edge so sometimes there is a compromise between sharpness and hardness.
Then you can throw carbide tools into the mix - very hard, brittle but are they as sharp? Some definitely are not.
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Cynics viewpoint:-
I have carbon steel tools and HSS tools all of which do the job. If and when they are worn down I might invest in some of the fancy new ones but at the moment I have no intention of spending money on new tools when the old ones work. As I haven't tried the Cryogenic tools I can't comment on them but I am blowed if I am going to spend money just to find out if they hold an edge better than the ones I have got. They won't make me a better turner will they?
pete
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They won't make me a better turner will they?
No, they won't. I just happened to need some tools to extend my initial (very limited) kit, and the cryo tools were around, plus I had used them at GBF's workshop during tuition. Now I am in the same position as John: the tools I have will last me for a very long time, and I don't see any reason to spend money on other ones just for the sake of trying.
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As someone who doesn't sharpen as often (or as well) as he should, perhaps I should stay below the parapet, but here goes.
The majority of my lathe tools are standard HSS, acquired second hand from multiple sources. They work just fine, didn't cost much and don't need sharpening unduly often.
I have two Crown PM tools which do seem to last a bit longer than HSS, but not significantly so, and I'm not convinced that the edge sharpness is any better than standard HSS. Only one is secondhand, as they're harder to find than HSS, so tend to be more spendy.
I also have a Crown M42 Cryogenic gouge and these do seem to sharpen better and hold a good edge for longer than HSS. Be prepared to pay, though.
Since HSS tools are perfectly adequate and available second hand, I wouldn't pay for the fancy metals unless I were a professional where (sharpening) time is money. Unless someone wanted to buy me a set for Christmas of course!
The only carbide tips I've used are the small round hollowing tips from Hope, which are very handy on occasion, due as much to the tool handle shapes as to the actual cutter.
I'm sure others will see things differently to me, but that's half the fun isn't it?
Duncan
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Hi
I think there is some confusion here(1)you are talking about materials ie carbon steel, high
Speed steel, (2)then you are talking about material treatments ie cyrogenic Hardening which alters the structure of the steel and allows the grain structure to get a lot
Closer and with this the steel gets tougher should wear better this holding a edge for longer than a normal high speed steel? This statement does factor in ie the cutting forces,
The material being cut. Different speeds etc. Plus the human factor which plays a massive
Role in the way that edge on our gouge etc lasts surprise, surprise.
(3)pm tools basically they are tools like tungsten carbide p.m stands powdered metallurgy
Carbide starts of has white powered and goes through a process called sintering finishing
Up as a tip with a coating that gives that insert a longer life under very controlled cutting conditions.
I think when the word pm is used it's not about tungstan carbide process but the process of making steel.many years ago it may still be manufactured called stellite that was if i recall a sintered material it was tough the only drawback to it was if you did not keep it cool
Part of the tool would drop off.
(4) carbide tools with exotic coatings on them the first time you grind the bevel that coating is wasted full stop.
,
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Hi
Just a little teaser there is a fellow on this forum who after sharpening then does what a Carver does he polishes his cutting edge using a strop and some paste this is done on any
Tool he owns and i tell you they are very sharp .
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DSeveral of us do that with skews. Haven't bothered with other gouges though.
Pete
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I do hone skews, however everything else gets used straight off the grinder
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Hi
Just a little teaser there is a fellow on this forum who after sharpening then does what a Carver does he polishes his cutting edge using a strop and some paste this is done on any
Tool he owns and i tell you they are very sharp .
Now Redtails we are getting on to dangerous ground here with comments like that. You see many turners will hone their skews, to my mind it makes sense as it is primarily a planing tool ( all this rubbish you used to hear about old turners using shark skin as abrasives when a skilled turner years ago would turn with a skew and finish with a rub of the shavings)(incidentally shark skin was more valueable to be used as shagreen but that is a completely different thread) I never saw the need to hone a gouge but....IMVHO if you are doing very fine(delicate) work a honed spindle gouge is a must.Try it on a piece of something like African Blackwood, used a chisel straight fom the grinder, rub the bevel and do a cut then do the same with a nicely polished and honed chisel. You will find that it takes much less effort to use the chisel and you get a much better finish straight from the tool. I was taught this many years ago by a chap who used to turn (and taught me to turn)Ivory. Now there will be those that will think that a material like Ivory could only be scraped, some think that of pewter too, but I can tell you that a nicely sharpened tool will cut beautifully both materials and do so producing delicate little curvy shavings.
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I also hone my skew chisels. I also have credit card sized diamond card which I sometimes use rather than go to the grinder when the skew needs a touch up
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Hi
I have to pick this up but why am in on dangerous ground and more to the point what are suggesting? :
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I don't own Cryo or M42 just HSS and Carbon steel. I have a 220 Grit belt on the Pro-Edge for all the gouges but I think also that skews need to be like a razor so they do get a bit of a polish. Julian
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Hi
I have to pick this up but why am in on dangerous ground and more to the point what are suggesting? :
Only because there are those that will argue that honing is a waste of time or that the edge of a tool is removed the moment it touches the wood or any number of reasons really, imagine you have the opposite of pandora's box and when you open it you can never close it again that is the can of worms that can be opened when talking about sharpening. (an d I am probably one of the worst offenders!!) ;D ;D ;D
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I take no credit for this thought, it has been expressed recently in the magazine by a friend who turns and carves wood. The amount of material removed by a woodturning tool can be quantified by multiplying the rpm of the lathe by the diameter of the piece of work by the number of minutes between sharpening. In other words, a lot of work which is going to beat up the cutting edge. A carving tool does relatively little work but is hand worked more directly. It is worth honing the edge of a carving tool to make it easier to use without the problem of quickly losing that edge. The lathe tool will lose an edge so quickly that it is not worth honing surely ?
ATB John
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Hi
John that was a poor attempt at a wind up, but it was done for a reason , people coming into this craft have lost has far has help to getting on to the first rung of the ladder of this craft in the majority of towns and city's spread around these isles unless they are a member of a club and let's be frank there are some of these clubs that are downright selfish and go out of there way to be akward not only to the young who need the the helping hand of a experienced hand but to the mature learner also why is it we have not one single member of female of the species
On this forum ?
It's very important that that the experience of this forum can be tapped in to before it's lost and sharpening is one of those black arts when you first start out on the road to learning this craft.
Who was who wrote "the craft is so long to learn,and the life so short"?
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Hi Redtails4
I think your comments on your last post were wrong ??? I have been woodturning about 20 years and the one thing I have found helpful above all is the generosity of woodturners to share information to any one who asks.
Sorry to get off the thread of this subject but I just had to say this.
Regards John
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Hi
I could not agree with you more wood Turner's in general are open minded people who will help at the drop of a hat
It's not the individual it's the collective please read my comments again these are based on personal experiences
The club i am in at the moment are a great bunch everybody mucks in ask a question and you get answer.
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getting back to the question, i think HSS is good enough as it's all i have and i use harder timbers that have more silica in and can be harder on the tools than most other turners have ever turned on here.
i've no carbide scrapers and i do not hone my tools but merely grind them on a white wheel that is on my record 8" grinder.
i have just been introduced to a hercules 3 from hunter tools sent by the manufacturer to do a review on the hard timbers i turn. i'm to compare it against my HSS gouge which gets a bit worn when turning my skittle balls and other tough timbers.
it won't replace my HSS tools but it will be used simply to extend the life of them.
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The thing is about woodturning is that there is so much to learn that it can take a lifetime to know it all, but who will be able to tell you that you can now stop learning. Everyday is a schoolday but especially so in this craft that we practtice. A friend on this website has recently given me a chisel (amongst other things) and this morn in the workshop I put a handle on it and tried it out. It is a bar about 5mm or 6mm diameter ground to be used as a box scraper. I have to say the second I tried it I loved it and it has now been placed in the armoury for future (regular) use. I have other box scrapers but this one is just .....nice. Redtails I agree that not many women become turners but that may be down to many reasons, blokes being MCP's could be one but in my experience not. We should remember that a chap with black all over his fingers is hardly noticed but a lady with the same sort of staining may not feel the same. But this off thread, sorry. Steve it will be interesting to hear your opinion of the Hercules 3.
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What is that saying? The man who stops learning is dead? I have a selection of old tools from retired turners, boot sales etc, all carbon steel and they are great for trying different angles, grinds etc. Also used old spindle gouges where the cutting edge has disappeared over the years and ground it to a three sided pointing tool, great for all sorts of work. All decent quality tools have a place and what worlks for you go for it but I am happy with the ones I have, when they wear out I may get a cryo one but not sure I'll last that long LOL.
Pete
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....just needed to say, I'm a bloke - I'm NOT an MCP !!!
Jim
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....just needed to say, I'm a bloke - I'm NOT an MCP !!!
Jim
Jim most blokes at clubs are very fine people but some are not hence my comment.
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Look out, here comes Brian's 2 penn'orth of bias!!
There seems to be no shortage of misconceptions flying about concerning 'plated' tools, such as the Sorby gold jobbies.
The only area of plating of importance is that tiny bit within the flute. The rest will be ground away over time having served no useful purpose except looking pretty. That bit within the flute, however, is worth its weight in …well gold actually, sorry about the pun... That tiny, wasp's whisker of titanium will always form the actual cutting edge and, being so hard, will outlast the standard HSS many times over.
I had these tools on test when they first came out, during my writing career, and my ultra-scientific regime included clouting two tools together to try to chip the plating and using wet and dry paper to try to remove it. The result? Arm ache, no chips and bald wet and dry! The spindle gouges are still on extended trial, even though I'm now on my second example and I retired from writing before Pontious started his pilot training.
Having, I think, played with all the tools mentioned in this thread here are my opinions on some of them...
There's nothing wrong with carbon steel tools, in the same way there is nothing wrong with a black and white telly or having Ilford film in your camera. I wouldn't recommend buying them second hand, however, because there is no telling if their tempering has been tampered with by overheating on the grinder.
Carbide scrapery tools are ideal for those turners who enjoy owning made stuff more than the actual making of it. In other words the end result is more important than the method.
PM tools also offer longer lasting edges than HSS.
Are any 'supertools' worth the extra pennies?
Possibly to a pro where turning time = the kid's supper but probably not to your average weekend warrior to whom turning time=enjoyment and satisfaction. They certainly wont improve anyone's turning one jot!
A gouge's flute shape and sharpening are, in my opinion, far more important than what they are made of. So stick to what already works for you would be my watchword. For instance, As already mentioned that I prefer Sorby spindle gouges but usually reach for a Crown PM bowl gouge. If I use another version of either it feels like wearing someone else's bedroom slippers.
Hope that helps
Brian
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Hi
Brian H i would agree with most of what you say but to talk about the coating a coating has being beneficial to a wood turner i would take issue with (1) when you grind your new coated gouge for the first time once that is done that bevel becomes it's weakest please afterwards when your bevel goes Blunt that's it's no matter how good the condition of the rest of the tool is.
These coatings have to be run at a 100% all the life of that inserts so all the edges wear at the same rate under cutting forces you will never match on a wood lathe no even one that is cnc controlled.
Some of these inserts are with a cutting time of minutes in when they are in contact with material.
Putting a coating on wood turning tool is a gimmick designed to catch the turner like carbide tooling is being used now.
That is aimed at the weekend turner who thinks that platter he turns with his carbide tooling he bought from so and so .it gives this gent that wood turning is ever so easy.
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Hi Redtails, its good to chat.
I'm afraid most of your explanation of 'inserts' went above my head but I just cannot agree that the titanium coated tools are a gimmick. The very tip of the cutting edge is, and will remain for the life of the tool, solid.... if exceedingly thin... titanium and the core of the tool, which is standard HSS incidentally, only plays a supporting role during the cutting process. Imagine, if you will, laminating two different coloured woods together and then cutting the resulting blank at an angle. The endgrain of both species will remain visible when the blank is viewed from the end no matter how many times you recut the angle.
All the best
Brian
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Hi
Brian inserts are little bits of precise sized pieces of tungstun carbide
That are used in the metal cutting industry and are in some way clamped to a single toolholder used on a lathe or in multiples clamped around milling cutter used on a milling machine.
The coatings are of the exotic nature very rare and very very expensive.
The whole concept of these coatings is to give better tool life, better surface finishes plus in some instances give a increase in cutting speeds and spindle speed which could result in in a increase in the cutting forces this is where the coatings come into there own.
I hope this gives some insight into the term "insert"
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Thanks Red.
Your explanation takes me back best part of a lifetime, to my teenage days at engineering college. I am damn glad to have left those days far in my wake..... especially as life led me to take up woodyturning seriously. Working a centre lathe and woody lathe may appear similar but I can tell you from personal experience that engineers make the very worst of pupils because of all the false assumptions they bring across with them.
All the best
Brian
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Hi
Brian i came into woodturning after retirement with time on my hands? After working as a engineer i came into
Woodturning simpley because of two things (1) the choice and freedom to be creative not restricted by a drawing
With a thousand and one dimensions on it, in woodturning it's your creative juices and using your eye i wished i was forty years younger in that my eyes now are not so good.and (2) i was given a 1957 copy of Fredrick Pains
"Woodturning". I came into this hobby ? with an open mind and no assumptions plus when i left work i left if i had one my ego behind thank goodness.
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Thanks everyone for the replies. Very enlightening from my point of view as a beginner :)
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I had to put my personal observations down on this thread, as a production turner I turn a lot of similar shapes on similar timbers through the day so thought a few months ago I would put a number of tools to the test including coated, powdered metallurgy, M2, M42 , 2060 , 2030. I was turning 250mm oak rings for a lighting company. The 3/8 (13mm Bar) bowl gouges were all sharpened the same way on a fine CBN wheel. The results from the first test were very surprising to the say the least and I not going to publish them here, why , I hear you say, well , the second test gave me completely different results. This is not a scientific test but those who know me are aware that I am pretty consistent in my stock removal.
Les
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That's interesting - and a bit mysterious and intriguing ;) - may I ask, why do you think the results were different between the first and second tests? And are you going to carry out more tests or publish the results at some stage?
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Hi Les,
You say: 'I had to put my personal observations down on this thread ... and I not going to publish them here". It doesn't seem that you're likely to share any results or be expanding on the above comments.
I might have read this wrong, but if not, then I'm bewildered why you started typing in the first place. But then, each to their own.
I'm not intrigued, so unless someone enlightens me I'll simply stop reading further posts on this thread.
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Hi Les,
You say: 'I had to put my personal observations down on this thread ... and I not going to publish them here". It doesn't seem that you're likely to share any results or be expanding on the above comments.
I might have read this wrong, but if not, then I'm bewildered why you started typing in the first place. But then, each to their own.
I'm not intrigued, so unless someone enlightens me I'll simply stop reading further posts on this thread.
The reason for the post was to show that wood is an inconsistent material and that you cannot always predict its abrasive, hardness and edge wearing properties when it comes to claims that "this tools edge will outlast other tools edge" I am very sorry and apologise that you are bewildered about my post .
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That's interesting - and a bit mysterious and intriguing ;) - may I ask, why do you think the results were different between the first and second tests? And are you going to carry out more tests or publish the results at some stage?
Hi Mike, I am afraid that I will not publish the results as they are so different so not sure if it will help anyone, just trying to say that it seems that turning tests on the durability of a tools edge is a very difficult thing to test
Les
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Hi Les,
... 'The reason for the post was to show that wood is an inconsistent material and that you cannot always predict its abrasive, hardness and edge wearing properties when it comes to claims that "this tools edge will outlast other tools edge"
Now I understand what your post was about.
Thanks for clarification.