AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nige7 on January 07, 2012, 08:59:00 PM
-
At a meeting on Friday night I started to wonder if there is an accepted judging system for turned items. Certainly the comments passed on some of the items sounded to my ignorant ears to be very professional as if there was some sort of published standards at work. I guess that if there are competitions then there are probably general rules. Is that the case can anybody tell me ??
Nigel
-
The short answer is "no".
There are things that work and things that don't. A kind of accepted general aesthetic is that curves should be curved and not contain flat facets. There are many opinions - and that's really all they are - on any aspect of the completed form, and whilst most are based on a general aesthetic (as might be gleaned from any number of books on ceramics, glass, sculpture, wood, metals Etc.) which is widely accepted, there is no reason you can't break the mould and go your own way so long as you understand that there are certain things which the human eye and brain are programmed to see as beautiful and others that we find not so.
The exception is woodturning competitions where a "score card" will be used to mark the pieces. These tend to be based on a very prescribed series of expectations with a conservative and traditional grounding. Many people feel these might be slightly out moded or perhaps not open to new ideas. But that's what you get in such competitions so I suppose entrant beware might be a good watch phrase.
All this isn't much help, I know. The best thing you can do is look, listen, absorb and then make your own mind up about what you like and don't like. But if you err towards a more self expressed path be perpared for criticisms and heated comments.
Most of all just enjoy it!
-
As Andy has stated, there are set accepted forms and shapes, if you dare to step outside of that then you are likely to get slated for it, my personal opinion is that while there are many beautiful objects made in these traditional shapes, we should not restrict our minds to those shapes only and we should continue to explore shape, otherwise there will be no innovation in woodturning and we will all in effect be copying what has already been done before.
.......but I probably won't be popular for that opinion :)
-
Thanks Andy, a great explanation. Thanks also to Kasandrovich and George, useful and valid opinions. I guess that if you are going to display finished work, particularly in a club environment, you should expect and accept the criticism, positive or negative that you are asking for. If you decide to step outside the 'traditional norm' then you should be able to explain/defend your work in an effort to move forward from the traditional situation in a manner that Kasandrovich advocates.
As a newcomer to the craft, and crediting myself with at least a modicum of brainpower, I realise that learning the traditional skills and forms is going to be the best start, not least because they are the skills and forms that people I ask advice from are going to know and be skilful in. While the learning is going on I can still apply my brain to ways I might do something a little 'outside the box' if you will excuse the pun.
Much obliged folks :)
Nigel
-
I'm sorry to report but there are, among us Woodies, a few who muddle up the words 'Opinion' and 'Fact'. The safest way around the problem is to treat everything you hear, read or are told, no matter how eminant the speaker/writer may appear as an opinion. You are then free to take them all on board, examine, question and try them all before coming to your own opinion, which may very well be different from them all.
Does that make sense? ???
Brian
-
Certainly does Brian :)
Nigel
-
Hi Nigel
When someone gives a critique, at a club meeting (not judging) it is the critiquers opinion alone, of what he/she thinks about the piece. There is no point at all in saying"this is very nice" when he/she, most probably thinks it isn't. I am of the opinion that you can usually tell how long someone has been turning by the shape, form and finish of the article, and it is to the makers advantage to be advised as to how it could have been improved. This subject has been contensiously discussed on this and other forums and caused many dissagreements. I hope I dont start another one!!!!! If it was being judged, then really a different, but similar process takes place, with the judge having to pick the best, in his/hers opinion. The main thing is not to take offence by comments made, but to take the piece home, have a good look at it and consider if you agree. If you do. then do something in a different way next time. If you dont agree then stick two fingers up!!!!!
Roger G
-
Thanks Roger, that was pretty much as I took it to be. As a beginner I know I have loads to learn and have probably tried to start on form before I have learned enough skills. The beginners turning book I have by Rowley suggests lots of spindle turning to learn techniques BEFORE starting on face plate or chuck work. I wanted to turn a bowl so I've ignored that so far but now about to start on some spindle work as chair legs are an important part of what my wife and I want to do :)
I can imagine that critiques, judging, call it what we will can be very contentious and it wasnt my intention to start a thread that might become so :) I am bright enough to accept criticism I can learn from and ignore what I can't :)
Nigel
-
Hi Nigel,
I can only add that you couldn't have a better book than Keith Rowleys, both are excellent, a good few, as I had, used his book to start and it's still good for today, it is to follow as layed out the Rules of the tools and cuts, as well as understanding, as you have already found, that woods ... differ in grain, density and how they cut, all will come clear in time, as will judging, as you get a better understanding of design, holding the work, cuts, finishes and hiding how it was held as with a bowl/platter or hollow form, when see see a piece and you ask yourself, how did they do that, then that piece is worth top marks.
Enjoy your turning, have fun and most of all work and stay safe ... follow the Rules.
David
-
Thanks David. I have an old skew, without a handle, that I have re-ground. I have a piece of olive (in the round) which is just about long enough and have started turning it to make a handle :) Lovely to turn, very dense and tight grained.
Nigel
-
Hi Nigel,
You might find the acidity in the olive wood will cause your tool to continually rust. A different wood might be a safer choice.
-
Thanks for that Paul. I wonder if burning the tang in will improve things ? This particular skew is an old one I 'rescued' so I'm not too bothered but I'll keep an eye on it.
Nigel
-
The main thing to remember is to enjoy your turning and make things you like or want to turn.
-
I'm no metallurgist but I know that high heat affects metal.
To heat the tang sufficient for it to burn it's way into the handle (even if pre-drilled) I would expect it to severely affect it but how, probably by annealing (Heating and slow cooling) hence softening the metal.
Maybe not something you want done to your handle/tool interface.
-
Whilst you would not want it too soft, having had a roughing gouge snap off at the tang, I would say that if mine had been a little softer then it would not be as brittle and may not have snapped, it may have bent a little.
-
Hi dr4g0nfly
This is a method I have used before particularly with old file handles. Using a decent sized blow torch I have heated tangs on files to red heat without getting the rest of the file so hot as to get colour changes. Admittedly files tend to be hard and brittle so a bit of annealing round the tang does not go amiss. I certainly wouldn't use this method on 'lightweight' tools as they don't have the mass or the surface area to cope well with fierce heating without getting to too high a temperature at the business end. All of this is experience from OLD steel tools NOT modern HSS steels which can be complicated to treat. Some modern HSS steels can suffer from thermal shock. Fast increases in temperature from room temperature can lead to cracking in the steel, not something you want on your new Sorby gouge :)
Nigel
-
The normal way to protect the tool proper from overheating when burning a tang into a handle is to wrap it tightly in rag, with just the tang showing, and then keep the rag wet.
Hope that helps a bit
Brian
-
I don't see as to any of the manufacturers tools I have handled, showing any form as to being heated for the fitting of the handles, it is likely they're pressed or driven after tapered or stepped holes being drilled, even with file handles.
Burning a tool into a handle may result in a poor fit due to carbin build up on the wood, then this is my thought on it, interesting long term as to the outcome to which you do.
Brian is correct in to stop heat run, wrap tool with wet rag, take care.
Cheers, David
-
Even with experience of heat treatments I wouldn't want to fit a handle to a turning tool in this manner. Especially not just so I could fit a handle of unsuitable wood. As Paul stated the olive wood may cause a reaction with the steel - especially if it is an old carbon steel tool. This in itself will weaken the tang over time - and as these things do, you'll only know when it's too late.
My advice: get a piece of boring old ash, beech, or similar and make a safe handle.
On the subject of old files as turning tools. Don't. They are always tang-fitted tools and they WILL snap. As they tend to be made into scrapers and used in a manner which almost inevitably leads to a catch it is bound to happen sooner than later. Why take the risk. If money is an issue either do without or but a reputable cheaper brand like Record.
-
Thanks to all. I'll take the advice about not using the Olive. It's not too late to turn it into a couple of light pulls :) Ash and Beech I have so that advice I will also take :)
I had no plans to turn old files into turning tools though I have seen that advocated elsewhere; my reference to files was only in the method of fitting handles:) Thank you for the warning though Andy, I might well have got around to trying to make a scraper from an old file at some time!
Does the acidity of something like Olive make a difference to the glues and finishes we can use?
Nigel
-
Most modern glues can handle the acidity of woods, but Olive and some other woods like Teak (and it's substitutes) are so full of natural oils thay can be very hard to glue.
The best method is to make sure you've de-oiled extremly well using white spirit or meths before applying glue to them.
-
Thanks dr4g0nfly, something else to keep an eye on then :)
I had wonderd about sandwiching a piece of olive between two pieces of a darker wood and turning some light pulls or spirtles. Am I likely to meet problems if the grains of the two woods are a little different in density? I guess it will be a little like cutting end grain twice on each revolution though if I ensure the laminations run with parallel grains that should make things easier???
Nigel