Colouring wood

[Frankenwood]

Hello all,

This would be my second post so I'll review me first

I am a relative beginner to turning but find that I love it! I started with a drill driven lathe and wood chisels and had great fun. Now I have graduated to a Record CL1, three speed and have a few secondhand gouges. I have joined a club and the next task (some of you may recognise this) is to present a coloured piece.

So I have set to and made a couple of spirit based colours, and they have worked well giving a nice transparent sheen to the work - this first piece is oak - however it has highlighted ALL the mistakes, and there are a few. Mainly it seems to be toolmarks which aren't visible on the unstained piece. I will say that this is the first piece and a 'try out' so it's not the final design. I've attempted to attach a pic, please forgive me if it doesn't work.

Has anybody been here before, can anyone offer solutions or advice? All comments greatly appreciated.

[Les Symonds]

Any surface finish which has any degree of transparency, will show a stronger colour where there is a thicker coating. If you get the slightest piece of torn grain, a snag or catch from the tool, a slight crack in the timber, or just a sanding mark the finish (especially things like spirit stains) will seep into it and form a thicker coating than it has elsewhere, and consequently, a stronger colour.

With  any stained or coloured finish, there are no short-cuts. Sharp tools, good tool control and proper abrasive-technique will all  work together to give the surface finish needed for the colour to be applied.

Les

p.s. well done for trying, especially with a natural edge to a part of the vase, but concentrate on your tool technique and abrading before you venture too far.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Frankenwood many turners spend as much time finishing as they do turning. There is no point in turning a nice piece only to ruin it at the last hurdle by poor finishing techniques. I can see by the picture that you have not abraded enough with the coarser grades of abrasive before moving on to finer grades. The other thing is to finally sand with the grain to get rid of all of the cross grain scratches caused by the abrasives. The other thing is to notice how "open" the grain appears to be  when finishing, a grain sealer may sometimes be in order.

[Derek]

I think most has been covered in the two previous posts so will not repeat. From when I take the last cut with the tool sanding and decorating can take up to a week depending on what you want to achieve some of that can be waiting for stains and finishes to dry properly before the next step.
I totally agree with Les's comment about learning tool technique as well as the sanding.
It is good that you want to venture further

[Misa]

Don't worry Frankenwood, you're not the only newbie who has to take all of this on board. 

[Frankenwood]

Hi, Wow! Blown away by all your lovely and helpful replies, thank you all.

Obviously I'm new to all this and I am coming to realise that I have only just begun to dip my toe in the water. Had no idea until reading other posts just how important sanding actually is! Until now I've just kinds waved the odd piece of sand paper at it and thought 'that'll do', other MAJOR mistake has been sanding at top speed......it's quicker and works, so why not? Errrrrrr, where do I begin😁?

Just reading back some of the previous threads has given me food for thought. Sanding at lower speeds being one. And I do tend to want to finish it TODAY, patience not being one of my strongest points.

I did actually seal the piece but only AFTER colouring, also beginning to realise that I could perhaps have sealed before...... So much to learn, and that point, that one just there, may be why I love doing this so much.

Really gentlemen, I am deeply appreciative of all your kind replies, thank you so much.

If everybody is agreeable I'll update this thread with any progress I make......bad or otherwise.

Kind regards

[Derek]

Something worth adding is that once you start to add finishes and or colour is to learn what finish to use over which type of colour just take it one step at a time it will all become easier as you progress. Remember walk before you run

[Frankenwood]

Hi Derek, thank you. It is a steep learning curve. And I am learning and appreciating the value of a really good helpful blog (and I'm learning about that too...😀).

It might be useful at this point to say that the only reason I'm travelling this particular path is because the club, of which I am a brand new member, has a monthly competition and it is for a coloured piece, and in an effort to support the club and to learn and to participate (something which I am not good at, another learning curve there) I am attempting to enter. Not just to enter, but to enter well...... so it's not my normal practice, but it is great because it's pushing me and motivating me to do better. And if that's not a wonderful reason to join a club for any newbie then I don't what else would be😀

By the way, I'm not saying all this to blow me own trumpet, I really do mean it.

Getting back to the subject:- it's oak, a bit which I cut from a felled tree, been felled 2-3 years by now, it has been sanded at high speed - 320,400,600,1200, some ultra fine wire wool there too, it was taken off the lathe and a slice cut off the top (it was a look I was going for but I don't think it has worked) the cut was graded with a dremel type tool to round it out, the top was then painted black and the body 'washed' with a spirit stain (details below) then a shellac sealer applied to the whole, then lightly hand sanded with 400, 600, 1200, then Black Bison wax applied and machine polished to a light gloss. Probably all done finish wise in a couple of hours......... took about a day to turn the object beforehand.

The stain is an experiment. Amongst other things in my life I was/am an artist and I reckoned that artists acrylic (of which I have a large quantity) mixed with a spirit (in this case Meths) might work as a stain. I'm really pleased with the results of the stain, just less pleased with the final result which is all mine to own - as I said a steep learning curve. Thinking now though that the stain might work better with water.... but the stains are still in development as yet.

That might fill in a few gaps so that you all know the full process I've gone through an how I arrived at this point.

I do hope I'm not rabbiting on too much and I do appreciate all the positive feedback.

[Les Symonds]

....it has been sanded at high speed - 320,400,600,1200, some ultra fine wire wool there too...

OK....not wishing to sound negative, but please accept this as constructive critique.....starting to sand at 320 grit is a technique which few other than the most accomplished turners ever achieve. When the wind is blowing in the right direction, I start to sand at 240, but if I'm frank, it's more likely to be 120/180. Therein lies a part of your problem. You cannot overcome the grain tear-out of poor tool technique with 120 grit abrasive, so to start with 320 is an exercise in underwater soot juggling....it ain't gonna work! I have 600 grit in my arsenal of abrasives and I use it just occasionally, but for general turning I end with 400 grit, then use finer Nyweb pads for the waxing process. It simply brings us back to what has already been emphasised; work on the tool technique, get walking mastered then you can have a go at running.
Les

[seventhdevil]

i agree with les start with a much coarser grit.


i sand with 100 and then 180 and keep lots of worn out 180 which acts more like 300 in the end.

i don't go higher unless the timber requires it.

[Frankenwood]

Hi Les and Seventh,

Many thanks for that advice, I will put it into practice....though it might mean another trip to the tool shop to get more sandpaper😀 And maybe just?......😁

It does sound a bit counter intuitive though, surely more is better when it comes to sanding and finer is better, and faster is better, not slower and coarser and less....?

Oh, and Les, and anybody really, don't worry about sounding too negative, it's not, it's helping me to understand that I have a long way to go and there's so much more to it than I realised and its fascinating. And I appreciate that everyone is taking the time, and making the effort, to help.

Seventh, can you explain what you mean?:-

"I don't go higher unless the timber requires it"

How do you know the timber requires it - or not?

[Derek]

Hi Les and Seventh,

Many thanks for that advice, I will put it into practice....though it might mean another trip to the tool shop to get more sandpaper😀 And maybe just?......😁

It does sound a bit counter intuitive though, surely more is better when it comes to sanding and finer is better, and faster is better, not slower and coarser and less....?

Oh, and Les, and anybody really, don't worry about sounding too negative, it's not, it's helping me to understand that I have a long way to go and there's so much more to it than I realised and its fascinating. And I appreciate that everyone is taking the time, and making the effort, to help.

Seventh, can you explain what you mean?:-

"I don't go higher unless the timber requires it"

How do you know the timber requires it - or not?

For the moment keep it as simple as possible, start with 120 grit and work through each grit until you get to 320grit removing the scratches from the previous grit before moving on to the next one. Keep the speed down low as stated otherwise you run the risk of overheating the piece and producing minor cracks which can be unsightly.
As you become more experienced then you may want to move to even finer grits depending on the wood or finish required.
Once you have cracked the sanding and finishing then move onto the colouring and other forms of decoration.
It is great that you want to take part in the club competitions and learn new techniques. try to enter the section or even the ones that you feel comfortable doing within your capabilities. They are good for getting to know where you need to put in more work.
You don't normally need to go any smoother this leave the wood in an ideal state to accept the finish

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Frakenwood well done for getting involved with your club that is a positive step in the right direction. It is a shame that more turners don't get involved.Do not feel too dispondent as you actually bring something to the table (forum)that we are all interested in. The fact that you are experimenting with paints and stains and are willing to share your results benefits us all. The reson you should start with a coarser grit abrasive is to get rid of any tooling marks from your work. This could be torn grain or grain that is "standing up" or maybe a bit of bruised timber where the heel of the tool rubbed.(You are rubbing the bevel when you cut aren't you?) As you finish with each grit rub with the grain and then step up to a finer grit, try not to miss out any grits. Sometimes it may help to dampen your wood(especially on a bowl) as this expands the cells and makes sanding easier. We don't sand at high speed because that can create heat which in turn can cause the wood to check or split especially on end grain.

[burywoodturners]

Just a couple of basics for you on abrasives.
One, the numbers. The numbers you see on the back of your abrasive is the number of holes to the inch the sieve used to grade the crushed glass before it was glued to the backing. I don' know how they do it now but the same numbering system is used, so the higher the number the finer the grit. ( some wet or dy papers run to thousand of holes to the inch, imagine drilling that!)
With the coarser grits you will leave a series of scratches, the next finer grit will leave finer sctatches, which if you have done the sanding correctly, the depth of these should meet the depth of the previous grit, and the next finer grit will do the same and so on ad infinitum. Going finer will increase the energy needed to remove wood and will heat up the wood.
A rough rule of thumb is that you should not go more than a 100 drop in grit size. i.e. when you use 150, then the next will be 240, for some strange reason there seems little logic in the way the grit sizes decrease so you wont get steps of 100 down the grades.
Just remember that you must remove the scrathes made by the previous grit, or you will seal a nice piece of work and see some lovely scratches undr the polish!
One final point, I am a bit on the mean side when buying stuff for the shed, but I will pay out for Abranet, which is in my opinion the best on the market today, you can get rolls or strips of it on Flea Bay for less than you local toolshop will provide, and non of the DIY sheds sell it. I know this because I am a bit on the mean side!
Ron

[seventhdevil]

Seventh, can you explain what you mean?:-

"I don't go higher unless the timber requires it"

How do you know the timber requires it - or not?

ok, i do a fair bit of production turning rather than decorative bowls so for my business of turning skittles for the west country i don't need a spectacular finish.

i do like making bowls however and i do one fair a year where i try to have lots of different species to wow the public into thinking what on earth is that. some species do not require that much finishing and sand very well. other can be a bit of a bugger to get nicely sanded for example hard maples like some field maple that i have had on the lathe today. it needs extra care to get rid of the sanding lines even fine ones as they stick out like sore thumbs when you add any finish (mine is danish oil and buffed) so i will go to a higher grit or worn out 180 paper then possibly wire wool and buff the bare wood with its own shavings to get that near sheen on the bare surface.

only then do i apply oil and wire wool and buf every couple of days till i can get it no better.

these pics are achieved just using the process i described.