Intellectual Property Act

[John D Smith]

I am afraid this thread is all a bit beyond my comprehension for instance Who made the first wooden bowl? I think that sometimes  every one produces work that other people have made I have often seen references in Magazines, On the Forum, and many other places suggesting a trip to museums to get inspiration for shapes etc.
 If a case ever comes to court I hope I am still around to see it thrown out.Stop worrying and get turning I am sorry to sound negative it all sounds
Bl@@dy crazy to me.
                              Regards John
   

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Well said John, now I'm off to copy some one else's work!!

[John D Smith]

Thank you for your support John (BHT) I look forward to hearing from some other turners.

                                Regards John

[woodndesign]

You'd call it my support too. John

Where does similarity contravene design, pattern or copyrights, is it the view of the person who considers theirs to be the sole rights to the form.

A good few years back now the Bowman that attended Yandles was fuming, Names escape me, but a follow Bowmaker had at some point during the day had strong words with him that He'd not only the express rights, but originated the Hawkshead on any Bow and this couldn't be copied by any others .. really .. not seeing Him, just how old had that gentleman been, the first Bows go back ...  ..

At best should any Form in Turning be a poor copy, then is it that the claimant expresses the piece is damaging to his own reputation, now if it were the perfect copy, was it contrived for gain to be past as that persons work, it falls under being fake or a forgery, then that's more with regards to Art and Painting.

Anyone who has published a book on the subject of Turning has done so to instruct and encourage the making of given forms, shapes and designs. There are few details in Turning and these when combined together make a limited form, it's when these come together in perfect symmetry, you can't help but have a form which has been produced before and reflex on it being a Classic Form, even too and here's where it differs, in the likeness of the forms say by Bert Marsh or etc .. etc ..

The making of anything will come to an end .. if all said, it's been done already, can't have the same made again.

Cheers  David

[ken rodgers]

I have been following this thread and decided to stay out of it until John bavely made his stance to which I agree with.
Most of us undertake woodturning as a hobby and make items or variation of items that have been around for thousands of years. The only thing that has changed is the techniques and tools involved, so if someone wants to protect these then they should not disclose them to others
I shall not lose any sleep over patents /IP etc so I'm off to bed and back in the work shop tomorrow morning
Ken

[woodndesign]

I have been following this thread and decided to stay out of it until John bavely made his stance to which I agree with.
Most of us undertake woodturning as a hobby and make items or variation of items that have been around for thousands of years. The only thing that has changed is the techniques and tools involved, so if someone wants to protect these then they should not disclose them to others
I shall not lose any sleep over patents /IP etc so I'm off to bed and back in the work shop tomorrow morning
Ken

Good night .. Ken.

Storms and Teacup .. who is it that's doing the shouting ..

Cheers  David

[bodrighywood]

In retrospect I'll plead guilt to reproducing a work.

Both Les (Gwintog) and myself were so taken by the Seamus Cassady Ewer that appeared on the back page of Woodturning a couple of months ago, that we felt impelled to make our own versions of it.

Was it the Ewer itself or the shape/curves that called to us?

Did we blatantly copy it or use it as a creative stepping stone to our own impression in our own style?

We're we wrong to be so inspired?

Can it be considered that we trampled on someones IP rights?

Both of you used it as a stepping stone and didn't try and make out that it was something that was your idea and both of you gave credit for the original source. What gets to me is not people copying, or emulating of course we all do that it is when someone copies to the point where they are even displaying and dressing the thing in the same way in order to sell and in the case that got to me did it in a way that was dangerous. Trying to get any kind of patent etc on the things we make is obviously a non starter but surely we have a right to complain or pick up on things that are not just blatant copies but are as someone mentioned detrimental to both H&S and to the reputation of turners pro or amateur? Maybe I am naive in thinking that people who copy should either ask or give credit to the source if it is another turner and should endeavour to produce work that is safe and of a decent quality.

Pete

[goldfinger234]

Sir James Dyson has given no end of interviews during which he's discussed the millions every year he has to spend to defend his copyrights and intellectual property. It's also been touched on more than once on the Dragons Den. Essentially you're got to have something very specific and quantifiable to protect, just a bowl or vase or box is nowhere near enough.

Virtually everything we turn is a slight variation on a theme of something that's been done a million times before. I understand the frustration of professional turners, or semi professionals trying to make some money on the side, especially when they see poorly made junk on the market that they must compete with, but I can't see this Act having much bearing on the situation.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I wonder if those that are selling inferior work know that it is of a lower quality than it should/could be? After the death knell was sounded for apprenticeships quality started to decline as standards were allowed to slip within all industry. The "old boys" were not there to tell you to "do it again and this time do it right" and so the ethos of the craftsman was lost. It is coming back, albeit very slowly and we as supporters of quality are playing our part in this, (just by posting here helps), the placatory nature introduced into schools, probably by pipe smoking raving liberals wearing open toed sandals and corduroy jackets who declared on sports day that it didn't matter if you didn't cross the line first as we are all winners doesn't help. Honest criticism of a piece made by a beginner coupled with helpful well meaning advice (and delivered in a non-condescending manner) makes for great strides forwards in raising awareness of the issues that when corrected will ensure a rise in overall quality.
         Regarding the question of copying other people's work, I am sure we all do it but I think Pete has a right to feel aggrieved if someone blatantly displays it the same way as he does but IMHO display is just window dressing, it is the quality of the item which sells itself.
       

[Richard Findley]

Just thinking about this from another angle, because all of my work is to commission, if someone comes to me and says 'could you make this?' my standard answer is 'yes!'. Of course I'm pretty up to speed on what my contemporaries are producing, so would know about an imediate rip off of say a Mark Sanger piece or a Stuart Mortimer (not my sort of work but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at) If someone asked me to make a furniture part to a certain design and it turns out that design isn't his, who is the one liable? Is it me for making it or him for commissioning it?

If it's me, do I have to research every commission I get before I agree to it, to make sure I'm not breaking the law....

Discuss...

Richard

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

A good point raised Richard, most of us here are probably talking about artistic pieces and had not given a thought to things like furniture designer's work. Although I must admit the bits that I last made for a furniture designer you wouldn't want to copy anyway, I only made them 'cos I was paid to !

[Richard Findley]

A good point raised Richard, most of us here are probably talking about artistic pieces and had not given a thought to things like furniture designer's work. Although I must admit the bits that I last made for a furniture designer you wouldn't want to copy anyway, I only made them 'cos I was paid to !

John

I do a lot of work for 'Designers', hmmmm... I'll probably leave it at that..... I do remember more than once though, after many long discussions with a 'Designer' about his product, he sent me drawings and my thought was 'Wow! So you own a pencil and a ruler! 

Richard

[bodrighywood]

My partner is a designer and for many years worked with one of the top furniture designers in the country. They had to make sure that each new design was registered and still ended up in court on at least one occasion trying to fight someone who was copying their design. They won but it took two years. It's a minefield. I would imagine that if you are reproducing parts for older furniture etc it would be less of a problem. Can't see Chippendale or Charles Rennie Mackintosh getting too het up somehow. Design registration has a limited life span anyway, not sure what it is but can find out if you want t know.

Pete

[Rlewisrlou666]

I think woodturning in general is a lot like drums in the music industry impossible to protect.

Someone will always have done something similar maybe in a different wood or using a certain colour stain.

Like it has been discussed on here commission pieces and solely art pieces are easier to defend as they are unique but if you start throwing IP rights/Laywers/Copyright at everything you make woodturning will die a horrible death and become impossible for anyone new to get involved.

I for one won't be inspired to continue if I accidentally copy someone elses design and get issued with a nasty cease and desist letter from some fat cat lawyer. I'll probably bundle everything up and sell it for the first offer I get.

Ryan 

[Graham]

Really ?
I would be chuffed to bits that someone thought the standard of my work a threat.

< quietly extracts tongue from cheek >