International forums - right or wrong

[Les Symonds]

Is there any value in international forums for something as aesthetic as artistic wood turning? I'm not going to express my own opinion yet, rather, I'd like to chuck a couple of contentious issues into the air and see where they land - to be the devil's advocate!

• By its very nature, good harmonious design is subjective. As a group, we tend to agree on what is harmonious and pleasing, but that is because we share a time-frame and a culture.
• 100 Years ago we would have had a very different approach to our art - were we wrong then, or are we wrong now?
• Nations remote from ours have their own focus of development, and therefore their own concept of 'good taste'. Does that mean that we are right in our beliefs, or that they are?
• If we are all 'right' in our beliefs, then why do we sometimes criticise (however constructively) our fellows' work, when it might appear wrong by our tastes, but still be right by someone else's
• In the 'Woodturning' group on Facebook (and I'm sure that this is just one example of many) we frequently see pieces that the owner proudly displays. It is clear that the form of the piece has had no reference paid in its making, to such guidelines as the 'rule of thirds' or 'the golden section'. Are these pieces therefore of any less aesthetic merit than some of ours?
• Much the same argument can be expressed of finish. This morning I saw a piece that not only bore no resemblance to the type of shape that we consider to be harmonious, but it appeared to be of a high gloss finish with plenty of specks of dust having settled in the finish before it dried
• ...and what about the materials used? There is a distinct bias towards using sustainable materials, so we all tend towards using our indigenous timbers, but in two recent submissions to a forum that I view, there were timber combinations that we would rarely use. What's more, one piece was made up of offcuts of timber which had formerly been built up of finger-jointed pieces - would we do that?

I'll stop there!

Les

[bodrighywood]

Whilst I agree that taste is subjective there are (IMHO) certain basic rules that apply such as the rule of thirds that you mention. Like many I am sure I have a shelf full of pieces that I have proudly made and then discarded because they 'just don't look right' sometimes after a few days though I can't always say what I don;'t like about them. Critiquing other peoples work has two objectives I believe, one the quality of the workmanship and two the overall design. The first should be a generally accepted standard and as such may vary depending on the experience of the crafts person. The second may simply be a personal taste. I cannot for the life of me see what people see in Van Goghs paintings for example but love Dali's work. I would love to be able to paint with the expertise of either but only one appeals to me as an artistic work....personal taste. Whether something is from America, China or the UK doesn't change the basic principles of design however and if you look at the classic and modern works that are produced you will see an overall tendency to adhere to these applied in the best work. Some more modern works perhaps don't seem to adhere to the rules but again there is usually something that attracts when the piece is well made and has some (often emotional) attraction. Finish should be appropriate to the piece. Some of my Wabi Sabi work has end grain or rough parts deliberately left as part of the tactile feature of the piece and for me that is acceptable. Outside of that there isn't really any excuse in leaving a piece as you describe (though I am sure we have all done it at some point). With regards to the use of sustainable materials, I think it is a matter of personal choice and whether it works if using jointed leftovers as you describe.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Part of the problem is perhaps people making things with wood that is unsuitable rather than looking at the material and working with it.

Big subject with, I am sure, many different opinions but at the end of the day for those that just turn because they enjoy it and produce well made piece, good for them, who am I to tell them they are wrong.

Pete

[Paul Hannaby]

I always assume that any web based forum is international by default.

[Bryan Milham]

I agree with Paul.  We have Hugie and have had at least 2 other Antipodeans I can think of. Jo Winters from Germany, we've had someone from Belgium, Portugal, America and I'm sure others.

I am a member of only one other woodturning forum, and it's not British, where I'm not the only Brit. But I have looked at several others.

To be truthful, I like the AWBG forum, we're honest with each other and give honest criticism. Too many other forums are full of 'how great', 'wonderful' and other platitudes that make people think they are turning well when [quite honestly] they are not as Les notes in the opening thread.

Yes I accept that learners need encouragement but that should be direction and assistance to understand form and tool control. From there they can develop their own techniques and level of attainment.

I'm not going to comment on the choice of wood, that is down to a person's perception or what is available, but I have seen some good stuff made from manufactured wooden worktops.

[Les Symonds]

I always assume that any web based forum is international by default.

Hi Paul...that's clearly correct, but a forum such as ours, with GB in the title, does tend to encourage members from its host country, whereas the woodturning forums on social network sites, such as Facebook, are much more truly international.
It's interesting to note that in our forum, even with the smattering of excellent members from other countries, there does appear to be quite a consensus of values, be they of form, materials or finish - whereas on Facebook's 'Woodturning' forum, there is a much broader spectrum of style etc.

Les

[David Buskell]

Les,

You have started an interesting thread here.

It does always worry me however when a group seem to imply that theirs is the right way or best.Having common views is fine as long as we all recognise that there are other and just as valid views held by others.

Criticism and critique are also subjective issues. In our journey as woodturners most of us do not have any guidance on techniques for critique or criticism so we do sometimes resort to "wonderful", "great shape" etc. However, help is on the way and I;ll post more details on here as soon as I know them.

There are many styles of turning and we should be open to them all. We may not like them but we should encourage experimentation and challenge "the norm", otherwise woodturning will die.

David

[edbanger]

Now having read this thread for a second time I'll add my two pennth's worth.

All forums are open to anyone from anywhere, but if you use a forum you will tend to go back to the forum where you like the feel of the thing. If you're going back to the same forum and posting work for C&C's you will possible adjust your work so that it fit's in with the C & C's that you receive. But that does not mean that what you have turned is good or bad, you can tell a fair amount from the picture, but you can't see if the wall thickness in a hollow form is consistent for example.

If I turn something and post it on here it's the same few people that pass comment, but I respect the comments from those who offer there option because that helps the turner. If I turn something and I want a real cross section feedback on the design I post it on two FB groups I don't really take a lot of notice of the comments, just the number of like's a piece gets if I gain above 60 likes then I think that the turning from a design point of view works.

It must be the same for all of us that take work along to our clubs, some people will like what's been done and others won't but I bet you only really take notice of a handful of fellow club members.

As to what timber we turn I feel anything that you are comfortable turning, so long as we are not just chopping down a tree so we can turn it then that's fine.

I feel the main aim of any woodturning forum should be to encourage and help other woodturners no matter where in the world they come from.

Ed

 

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

If you're going back to the same forum and posting work for C&C's you will possible adjust your work so that it fit's in with the C & C's that you receive. But that does not mean that what you have turned is good or bad.

Ed
 

Ed this is why when I was a member of one particular club that I stopped taking part in the monthly competition, because I was making stuff to win the comp not making stuff that I wanted to make. The design of my pieces were aimed (subconsciously)to please the judge. It took me a while to figure out what I was doing wrong but that was it.

[edbanger]

BHT Your right I've just turned a piece more for the club than me but I'm not sure that I'll be entering it, I think they will get a another holey piece of Olive I'm working on 

[woodndesign]

Is there any value in international forums for something as aesthetic as artistic wood turning? I'm not going to express my own opinion yet, rather, I'd like to chuck a couple of contentious issues into the air and see where they land - to be the devil's advocate!

I'll stop there!

Les

The thread as it was posted ... not to get side tracked ..

Culture, If not Our own Artistic concept lead in most to the forms we make, plus influence of the many things we've seen from the multitude of Media Resources to hand these days and most has come, are of an International source, where again any one place has it's own timbers not readily available elsewhere ... greatest shame.

By all means as in any competition/challenge the material, form or size will be dictated and the element should always be in the taking part, than in the hope of winning, the best way of approach, then should you get a place, even 3rd/runner up is rewarding.

Cheers  David

[Graham]

<quote>
Is there any value in international forums for something as aesthetic as artistic wood turning?
</quote>
I am not really sure what you are aiming at with this question. I belong to several forums and media pages like Facebook etc and see turnings from all over the world.There are some that don't particularly appeal to me but those don't equate to any particular part of the globe. Just about every country is now multi cultural and it seems to make little difference what part of the world a turner is in when it comes to admiring the skill involved, and whether I like the style or not.

[burywoodturners]

If you need to ask a question, then the bigger and wider the forum the more chance of getting an answer, You need to decide if the answer you get is helpful or not
Ron

[malcy]

I am a member of the Segmenters Woodturning Forum. This is a truly international forum although it is mainly based in USA and has  members from all over the world. I joined this forum about 4 years ago and go onto the site every other day or so. I have learnt an enormous amount from other members in this forum and would not be a segmenter but for this site. Whilst many of the pieces posted are utilitarian items, the designs and patterns in many cases are really artistic to say nothing of those that are created as works of art. So I say, this site certainly moves woodturning in the artistic direction and encourages members to move that way too. Malcolm.

[andersonec]

Is there any value in international forums for something as aesthetic as artistic wood turning? I'm not going to express my own opinion yet, rather, I'd like to chuck a couple of contentious issues into the air and see where they land - to be the devil's advocate!

• By its very nature, good harmonious design is subjective. As a group, we tend to agree on what is harmonious and pleasing, but that is because we share a time-frame and a culture.
• 100 Years ago we would have had a very different approach to our art - were we wrong then, or are we wrong now?
• Nations remote from ours have their own focus of development, and therefore their own concept of 'good taste'. Does that mean that we are right in our beliefs, or that they are?
• If we are all 'right' in our beliefs, then why do we sometimes criticise (however constructively) our fellows' work, when it might appear wrong by our tastes, but still be right by someone else's
• In the 'Woodturning' group on Facebook (and I'm sure that this is just one example of many) we frequently see pieces that the owner proudly displays. It is clear that the form of the piece has had no reference paid in its making, to such guidelines as the 'rule of thirds' or 'the golden section'. Are these pieces therefore of any less aesthetic merit than some of ours?
• Much the same argument can be expressed of finish. This morning I saw a piece that not only bore no resemblance to the type of shape that we consider to be harmonious, but it appeared to be of a high gloss finish with plenty of specks of dust having settled in the finish before it dried
• ...and what about the materials used? There is a distinct bias towards using sustainable materials, so we all tend towards using our indigenous timbers, but in two recent submissions to a forum that I view, there were timber combinations that we would rarely use. What's more, one piece was made up of offcuts of timber which had formerly been built up of finger-jointed pieces - would we do that?

I'll stop there!

Les

Seems to me you've answered your own questions with the comments you have made in the last three paragraphs......what is good in the eye of one person is wrong in the eyes of others, feel free to make comments on other peoples work but make sure it's constructive, nothing to destroy somebody's enthusiasm like bad criticism. Was the work you describe done by an experienced turner or novice? Sometimes though, I think people say nice things about other peoples work because at the time it would be embarrassing to say anything else then go away and have a giggle but we all have to start somewhere.

Most of the classic forms we are following now were first used in Roman times, let alone 100 years ago, and will never change or be improved on so the "subjective" theory goes out the window where those are concerned.

Andy

[Les Symonds]

Most of the classic forms we are following now were first used in Roman times, let alone 100 years ago, and will never change or be improved on so the "subjective" theory goes out the window where those are concerned.

Andy

I accept that many of the classic forms are classical in their origin, but these forms have not always been at the forefront of designers' or makers' minds. In mentioning 100 years ago, I was thinking of the fussy, highly decorated and typically-Victorian shapes that most of us wouldn't dream of making these days, but which we still occasionally see. There are many cultures in the world which still manufacture goods in a style reminiscent of that era. The whole point of my initial post was to suggest that, if they are not wrong in their beliefs about their style, then who are we to criticise; even if we do it covertly and inadvertently by heaping praise on those shapes and forms that conform to our current view of what constitutes good design?

Les