Author Topic: What do member expect form the AWGB  (Read 23256 times)

richardpeers

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Re: What do members expect from the AWGB
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 11:30:28 AM »
Hi Philip

This is a brave question to be asking, so I'm very glad to see that you have done so.

What is a national association for? I would say representing the best interests of the craft and the membership on a national level. This would include things like negotiating discounts, lobbying politicians, liaising with similar groups (Worshipful Company, RPT, SOT etc), raising awareness among the public, attracting more people into the craft, providing training, providing access to the craft for those who have personal obstacles to be overcome (be it financial or physical).

By and large, I'd say you were already doing all of that, but maybe not with as much impact as you could. Please do not take this as an attack, but much of what we see from AWGB appears amateurish. This is only natural - you are unpaid volunteers, not professional administrators, and have come to office from your love of woodturning. Revolutions has improved massively in recent years, with colour images and much better proof-reading, but it is still a bit parochial. I do hope you have access to the AAW newsletters; I've seen a couple, and they are much better all round. Is the difference purely because of scale (and hence money)? I note that they charge $53 or over £30 for membership in the US. Perhaps you are pricing yourselves too cheaply, and then are not able to provide as good a service? You could try asking for a doubling of the fee - now that would be a ballot with a big turnout!  ;D

I don't know if I'm right, but I would expect an organisation with 3000+ members to have more clout with suppliers: it should be possible to obtain discounts from all the big players like Sorby, Craft Supplies, Axminster. At the moment, I can't even check what discounts are available, because the link on the AWGB web site does nothing.

One thing I just spotted on the AAW site that would be of great benefit to branches is the negotiation of a national credit cards payment facility. We know we are losing out at our sales by not taking cards, and we now have to run the risk of taking cheques with no guarantee card backing. We researched the possibility of having our own card machine, but it just wasn't financially viable for us. Centrally negotiated, this could be a lot cheaper and would I'm sure be very popular.

Because of the distances involved, it is not easy to provide any services to members that need face-to-face contact. I have seen the AGM notices each year in Revolutions, noted that the location is very sensibly central in the country, but also that it is a good long drive each way for me, as it will be for most, and decided not to attend. No doubt thousands of other members have thought the same. Have you thought about using technology to bridge this gap - a conference call we could dial into to listen, perhaps? The forum is one way of letting us communicate, as I am doing now, so I'm pleased to see this innovation being used.

Don't get me wrong - your efforts are appreciated, at least by me. I know how much hard work is needed to run just a branch, so it must be even more demanding at the national level. However, you are clearly not getting through to everyone. Recently, several members have spoken to our club committee about our affiliated status, so we did a thorough review. Our conclusion was that leaving AWGB completely was the worst option for all; becoming an associated club would benefit those who don't want to continue as AWGB members to the tune of around £7 a year, but this was counter-balanced by those who would want to continue, who would have to pay around £9 a year more for the same benefits as now. In the interests of fairness for all members, we decided to retain our affiliated status, which I'm sure will be good news to you. However, the very fact that this was in question should cause some disquiet.

Hopefully, you see this as a balanced and fair answer to your question.

Offline David Buskell

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 04:02:44 PM »
Richard makes some valid points in his reply and I think we would all agree with the areas he feels that the AWGB should operate in. I'd add more international collaboration to that list.

We'd all like to see the AWGB maintain a higher profile but one problem it has to resolve is the fact that it only represents a small percentage, possibly around 25%, of all woodturners in the UK.

This raises many issues as to why there are so many turners out there who are not members and for what reasons.Perhaps freedom of choice is one of those reasons?

The AAW has around 14000 members in  the USA and many overseas countries including the UK.

I'd love a centralised credit card facility as it does cost a lot if you go it alone. However, most sales are paid by card these days so it is a worthwhile investment.

David
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Offline John D Smith

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 11:05:57 PM »
Hello Richard,In my opinion you seem to be following the same trend as you did in the previous thread (Ballot Results) You compare the AWGB with the AAW I don't think you are comparing like for like it has been stated many times about the apathy of Club Members in the Uk this is not just Woodturning Clubs.I think you have posted on a couple of threads on this Forum both of these you seem to be knocking the AWGB Committee even though you say this is not an attack on them.I am not as eloquent as you in putting my my point forward,please get off your high horse, and I look forward to seeing you taking more participation on the Forum like showing us some of your work etc.Regards John >:( 
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Offline Philip Greenwood

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Re: What do members expect from the AWGB
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 10:07:05 AM »


One thing I just spotted on the AAW site that would be of great benefit to branches is the negotiation of a national credit cards payment facility. We know we are losing out at our sales by not taking cards, and we now have to run the risk of taking cheques with no guarantee card backing. We researched the possibility of having our own card machine, but it just wasn't financially viable for us. Centrally negotiated, this could be a lot cheaper and would I'm sure be very popular.


One point here is that under most agreement with card companies is you are not aloud to take payments on behalf of other people. The payment by the customer must by made direct to the person who has the agreement with the card company.

Philip

richardpeers

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 10:25:50 AM »
Hello Richard,In my opinion you seem to be following the same trend as you did in the previous thread (Ballot Results) You compare the AWGB with the AAW I don't think you are comparing like for like it has been stated many times about the apathy of Club Members in the Uk this is not just Woodturning Clubs.I think you have posted on a couple of threads on this Forum both of these you seem to be knocking the AWGB Committee even though you say this is not an attack on them.I am not as eloquent as you in putting my my point forward,please get off your high horse, and I look forward to seeing you taking more participation on the Forum like showing us some of your work etc.Regards John >:( 


Yes it is easy to knock things but if you dont think things are perfect you can always get more involved and change them.
Well put John.

Regards George

What a pair of responses!

No high horse involved - I was answering a direct question from a member of the AWGB EC. I clearly made the point that the AWGB is already doing most of the items on my list, and then went on to suggest some things that could be done that aren't. I call that "getting involved".

Yes, I did compare to the AAW - I find your implication that Americans are so significantly different from British to be frankly quite insulting.

Have you even considered that your overly defensive attitude and obvious cliquiness could be what is putting people off?

richardpeers

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Re: What do members expect from the AWGB
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 10:27:52 AM »


One thing I just spotted on the AAW site that would be of great benefit to branches is the negotiation of a national credit cards payment facility. We know we are losing out at our sales by not taking cards, and we now have to run the risk of taking cheques with no guarantee card backing. We researched the possibility of having our own card machine, but it just wasn't financially viable for us. Centrally negotiated, this could be a lot cheaper and would I'm sure be very popular.


One point here is that under most agreement with card companies is you are not aloud to take payments on behalf of other people. The payment by the customer must by made direct to the person who has the agreement with the card company.

Philip

I don't know the details of the AAW scheme, but they seem to have got round this. I have had a very favourable response on this from several people I have spoken to. It would be good if you could make a commitment that the AWGB committee would at least investigate the idea.

Offline Philip Greenwood

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 10:43:15 AM »
Hi Richard

Like you i am only a member of the AWGB i am not a committee member, so i can't make any commitment that this will be looked at.
From my view I do have a card agreement with a company and i would have my agreement cancelled and my face criminal chargers if i processed a card for someone else.

Regards
Philip

Andy Coates

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2012, 12:50:19 PM »
Could we please keep this pleasant folks! If I, or any other EC member hasn’t yet taken offense then I guess none was intended.

A credit card scheme would be a great idea, but sadly, i feel, unworkable. The market traders’ association run a similar scheme, but their rates are not much better, in fact in line, with those companies who offer the service as a standalone facility. The truth is they are all out to make money and do so very well.

Rates seem to be about £28/mnth standard charge and variable % per transaction.

It mystifies me why banks don’t make the facility more financially viable for individual/group traders as it would surely result in more deposits. I suppose the fact of the matter is that whilst they can make a killing they will do so.

Having said that I am quite prepared to suggest that the committee look into the possibility of a group scheme.

As Philip G points out, this would still require individuals to register, be approved, and operate on an individual basis. Remote payment rules do not allow for one machine and multiple users due to money laundering regulations.

I think what you are asking is this:

Could the Association broker a reduced rate deal through a clearing house to offer the provision of a remote CC facility on behalf of its members?

Personally I doubt it. Of our 3000+ members we would not know how many would apply and I’m certain the companies would need some idea before any negotiation could begin.

On the AAW matters...

The AAW have 14000(ish) members, each pays more than our £16 per annum. About £34 average. That’s subscription income of about £450,000 per annum. Significantly more than we have to play with. They have full-time paid staff in a number of areas, for instance their magazine has a full-time paid Editor and two staff and a budget (at last checking) of $1.5m.

The perception that they do everything better is not supported by comments from US demonstrators when they attend the AWGB seminar. Bigger is not always a mark of better.

I don’t know where the figure of only 25% of UK turners being represented comes from – although I’d be interested to see supporting data.

Just a few thoughts of my own.

richardpeers

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Re: What do members expect from the AWGB
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 01:33:52 PM »
The perception that they [AAW] do everything better is not supported by comments from US demonstrators when they attend the AWGB seminar. Bigger is not always a mark of better.

I am not a member of AAW, but I have seen their web site and a couple of their journals about three years ago. I have no idea whether they do everything better or not, and certainly didn't say so. I was impressed by their journals, and was impressed again by the degree of chapter (= branch) engagement shown on their web site. Examples on there right now are: on-line archives of the journals in a members-only area, a Best Newsletters and Web Sites feature for the chapters, a monthly membership drawing (= free raffle with donated prizes), and the credit card facility.

One thought that could be worth exploring: I have noticed that Woodturning magazine is becoming increasingly international; if articles by British turners are of interest in the US, then there could be mileage in talking to AAW about sharing and exchanging articles between Revolutions and American Woodturner. This would give them access to our articles, and us access to theirs, improving the range and possibly the quality of copy for both magazines.

Offline John D Smith

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 03:20:02 PM »
Hello Richard,There was not any implication intended that the Americans were different from the British but clearly they are but this was not meant to be insulting to you or anyone else.
I do not consider putting my point of view forward being overly defensive and as for cliquey I certainly am not if you find my direct answers to your postings offensive then I am sorry.I will still look forward to some of your future postings.Regards John
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Offline Dave Atkinson

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2012, 08:30:21 PM »
Some interesting thoughts have been expressed and I can contain myself no longer! ;D ;D

Firstly I'd like to have a look at the 25% quoted by David above.  Last year saw the demise of the Northern Federation because from all their 40+ clubs no-one was prepared to come forward and stand for the committee and the secretary and treasurer (both friends of mine) wanted to step down after many years of service.  38 of these clubs decided to associated with the AWGB and we currently have 58 associated clubs and 58 Affiliated branches.

Our total membership stands at 2971 or which 477 are individual members like myself, who are not part of an Affiliated Branch.

If we assume that club membership roughly equates with branch membership then the AWGB represents approximately 5000 + people plus some individuals (who may be part of a club).

Where are the other 15,000 turners if we only represent 25%.  Personally, I suspect we represent the majority of turners eiterh as individuals, in branches or in clubs, but I can't substantiate that either.

Secondly, we have been trying to get one of the 3,000 or so members to step up to the plate to take on the treasurer role for almost 12 months without a nomination.  Fortunately Paul Hannaby offered to help and he took my role and I took on the job of treasurer, and willingly so.  we are also fortunate to haev Russell Gibbs from my neck ofteh woods wanting to get involved as the Northern rep.

We don't have much money to spare and finding time to do everything required to run a national association (irrespective of how many people it represents) takes time  and effort and I for one am self employed and work full time (when the work is there, and worry about it when it isn't!).

I'd be pleased to look at a central card facility, or at least ask the question Richard, but I'm pretty busy at the moment getting to grips with the new role and making arrangements for the financial aspects required for the Limited Company and charity application.  If you really believe it is a good idea please investigate the arrangements, get some costs, put together a process stating how it would operate and submit a report to myself and I will bring it to the EC for consideration.  That would be a real help.

Same goes for any other ideas, please investigate, put together a short paper about how they would operate and submit to the EC for consideration.  our biggest problem is lack of time and therefore we have to prioritize our efforts (and have a life as well).

This business of "what do i get for my money" makes me cross I'm afraid.  I have been to Woodfest today where I spent a couple of hours in lovely sunshine with my wife having a look around.  It cost me £30 to get in (£15 each), similar to our subs.  The benefits fo AWGB membership are significant but if the membership stops paying then the organisation will cease to be.  And then there would be no Revolutions, no forum, no seminar, no "free/subsidised insurance", no free courses, no demonstrator training, no free instructor training courses, no wood turning certificate and no EC.

To paraphrase JFK

"Ask not what your AWGB can do for you…ask what you can do for your AWGB"

best regards to all Dave

Offline John D Smith

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 09:17:09 PM »
Hello Dave,What a great posting in this thread you have said many things that I and many others may be are thinking what a good idea if someone has an idea to do some of the ground work which then takes some of the pressure off the EC.I think sometimes members forget a lot of our EC work full time and need to make a living.I am glad you have summarised  some of the benefits the EC have introduced.The work that is not only carried out by the EC but all of the helpers for example take the Seminar which I have had the pleasure of attending the last three, it is a great 3 day event but that is the tip of the iceberg it is the 2 years of hard work prior to the event as that starts almost as the current one ends and the dam hard work setting up for the one about to start.Remember look after your EC or one day we may go the same way as the Northern Federation, I am Quite sure when they were trying to form a Committee the told members if they didn't a Secretary & Treasurer it would fold, the heads went deeper into the sand and said this wont happen well it did. I do hope if my rant has upset anyone I am sorry.It was said from the Heart.Regards John  
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Offline John D Smith

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 09:36:56 PM »
Sorry to be posting so much on this thread but I have just read the thread by Bill Mooney (Another Disabled Turner) This for me epitomises what the AWGB is all about Fantastic. Regards John ;D ;D
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Offline David Buskell

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2012, 04:19:33 PM »
In response to Dave's reply:

If your number are correct, then it's good to see that you have managed to get a lot of members from the demise of the NFWG.

The original calculation mentioned in my posting was done with a fellow member of the AWGB EC and we concluded that:

AWGB has 3K members. There were about 3-4K members in the NFWG of which probably 1-2K were also in the AWGB. The balance of 6K was a conservative estimate of turners who are not in clubs or AWGB.This was the best estimate then then Chairman of the AWGB and myself could come up with-but as you rightly say, unsubstantiated.

Recent events make me think that the balancing figure  is understated!! We come across more and more turners outside the fold (so to speak) and in my Club's area alone, we can probably identify about 60 such turners (almost the same as our membership).

It's the old question: how long is a piece of string? The key issue is that there are a significant number of turners out there who, for whatever reason, wish to remain independent.What can we do to want them to come into the AWGB??

The issue of a CC machine is a pertinent one. I'm a member of the AAW but as yet haven't investigated the cc facility. I have my own via Elavon Services - who are reckoned to be the best priced service (according to my bank -Lloyds- we can't all be perfect!). If the AAW one works in the UK, then I will switch. I can then lose charges of £25 per month plus transaction fees.
The AWGB investigated a card facility with their bankers Lloyds TSB some years ago but for the Association, not the members, as far as I recall. I did the investigation but can't lay my hands on the paper that was prepared.

Dave, I'm happy to investigate if my card people and Elavon would offer a similar service to the AAW but this will have to wait for a couple of weeks as am on hols from tomorrow (San Jose- the AAW symposium).

Is the AAW symposium better than the AAW? I've been to both and would say that as the AWGB format is modelled on the AAW one, there's not much to choose. Probably around 1000 people attend  the AAW and the Trade Show is about as big as Ally Pally was and a bit more. The AWGB get around 180-200 attendees and a reasonable Trade area.

The AWGB give a good range of demonstrators and hopefully have now changed the format of the Trade area to encourage more traders to invest time/money in attending.

Both organisations provide  demos with new ideas and techniques so I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.

I'm happy to post some notes and pictures from San Jose when I get back.

David
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Offline David Buskell

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Re: What do member expect form the AWGB
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2012, 04:24:53 PM »
Just remembered:

There's also an app put out by Adelante which provides a cc facility. Cost is low (£50) but you need an iphone or something similar. I think you still need a merchants account but if anyone uses this facility, please feel free to correct me!

David
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