Carbon steel, HSS, Cryo, PM and Titanium nitride

[Mike313]

Being a newcomer to woodturning, I was browsing through some websites reading about tools. As you do.
I was aware that tools, particularly in times past, were made from carbon steel, which can be sharpened to a very fine edge but needs regular sharpening.
As I understand it, in more recent times, high speed steel is more common and the preferred choice of many, as it holds an edge longer but is not capable of being sharpened to quite as fine an edge as carbon steel.
All well and good.
NOW I have read about cryogenically treated steel which Henry Taylor Company claim to stay sharper even longer, and then there are those produced by Crown made by powder metallurgy, and yet others by Robert Sorby that are coated in titanium nitride.
I hasten to say that I am NOT in the market for tools or looking to buy the latest gizmo. I'm quite happy with my old tools
But, in the interest of learning, I would be very interested in hearing what turners think of the latter three - cryo, PM and T.nitride - particularly those who have used them. What are they like in use? Are they worth the extra money?

[fuzzyturns]

I use a lot of the cryo tools from Henry Taylor, and they are definitely worth the extra money. Haven't used any of the PM or titanium nitride coated ones, so can't speak for them.

[Les Symonds]

My main stock of tools is HSS, but I am beginning to buy Cryo tools and, like Fuzzy, I am impressed by the extended life of the edge between sharpenings. Admittedly, they cost more, but given the lower frequency of sharpening, they are going to last much longer and work out cheaper in the long run.
Les

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Mike I quite like the HSS tools but still use some of my old Carbon steel chisels. I admit to owning 2 Cryo tools, a bowl gouge and a spindle gouge. Now it may just be because these are my newest tools in the box but they have become my favourites. I can't say that I have actually noticed any difference between them and the HSS but then at this stage of the game sharpening for me is a habit and happens all the time. I have not tried the other types and must say that I probably never will as I will struggle to use up all of my existing tools before I shuffle off of this mortal coil.
 What I will say though is every tool will benefit from being correctly sharpened and that will seriously improve your turning ability which in turn will help you to enjoy it all the more.

[Wood spinner]

Hss for me

Re sharpening this is a minefield , and can cost you big time , in money and accelerated tool loss /

Shaping a tool the first time cuts away steel , once you have the profile a quick sharpen extends the tool life

[Paul Hannaby]

Cryogenic treatment and powder metallurgy are supposed to give a finer structure to the steel which is supposed to hold it's edge better. From my experience it makes a small improvement but not a huge difference.

Titanium nitride coating never seemed to have any merit because one of the two surfaces of any edge is ground and therefore has no coating!

The various alloys such as ASP 2030 / 2060, V10, V15 and M42 all claim to increase edge durability. I can't say I've used all of them but the ones I have tried do seem to hold their edge better. Some of these alloys don't give such a sharp edge so sometimes there is a compromise between sharpness and hardness.

Then you can throw carbide tools into the mix - very hard, brittle but are they as sharp? Some definitely are not.

[bodrighywood]

Cynics viewpoint:-

I have carbon steel tools and HSS tools all of which do the job. If and when they are worn down I might invest in some of the fancy new ones but at the moment I have no intention of spending money on new tools when the old ones work. As I haven't tried the Cryogenic  tools I can't comment on them but I am blowed if I am going to spend money just to find out if they hold an edge better than the ones I have got. They won't make me a better turner will they?

pete

[fuzzyturns]

They won't make me a better turner will they?

No, they won't. I just happened to need some tools to extend my initial (very limited) kit, and the cryo tools were around, plus I had used them at GBF's workshop during tuition. Now I am in the same position as John: the tools I have will last me for a very long time, and I don't see any reason to spend money on other ones just for the sake of trying.

[Duncan A]

As someone who doesn't sharpen as often (or as well) as he should, perhaps I should stay below the parapet, but here goes.

The majority of my lathe tools are standard HSS, acquired second hand from multiple sources. They work just fine, didn't cost much and don't need sharpening unduly often.

I have two Crown PM tools which do seem to last a bit longer than HSS, but not significantly so, and I'm not convinced that the edge sharpness is any better than standard HSS. Only one is secondhand, as they're harder to find than HSS, so tend to be more spendy.

I also have a Crown M42 Cryogenic gouge and these do seem to sharpen better and hold a good edge for longer than HSS. Be prepared to pay, though.

Since HSS tools are perfectly adequate and available second hand, I wouldn't pay for the fancy metals unless I were a professional where (sharpening) time is money. Unless someone wanted to buy me a set for Christmas of course!

The only carbide tips I've used are the small round hollowing tips from Hope, which are very handy on occasion, due as much to the tool handle shapes as to the actual cutter.

I'm sure others will see things differently to me, but that's half the fun isn't it?

Duncan

[Redtails4]

Hi
I think there is some confusion here(1)you are talking about  materials ie carbon steel, high
Speed steel, (2)then you are talking about material treatments ie cyrogenic Hardening which alters the structure of the steel and allows the grain structure to get a lot
Closer and with this the steel gets tougher should wear better this holding a edge for longer than a normal high speed steel? This statement does factor in ie the cutting forces,
The material being cut. Different speeds etc. Plus the human factor which plays a massive
Role in the way that edge on our gouge etc lasts surprise, surprise.
(3)pm tools basically they are tools like tungsten carbide p.m stands powdered metallurgy
Carbide starts of has white powered and goes through a process called sintering finishing
Up as a tip with a coating that gives that insert a longer life under very controlled cutting conditions.
I think when the word pm is used it's not about tungstan carbide process but the process of making steel.many years ago it may still be manufactured called stellite that was if i recall a sintered material it was tough the only drawback to it was if you did not keep it cool
Part of the tool would drop off.
(4) carbide tools with exotic coatings on them the first time you grind the bevel  that coating is wasted full stop.

,

[Redtails4]

Hi
Just a little teaser there is a fellow on this forum who after sharpening then does what a Carver does he polishes his cutting edge using a strop and some paste  this is done on any
Tool he owns and i tell you they are very sharp .

[bodrighywood]

DSeveral of us do that with skews. Haven't bothered with other gouges though.

Pete

[Lazurus]

I do hone skews, however everything else gets used straight off the grinder

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Hi
Just a little teaser there is a fellow on this forum who after sharpening then does what a Carver does he polishes his cutting edge using a strop and some paste  this is done on any
Tool he owns and i tell you they are very sharp .

Now Redtails we are getting on to dangerous ground here with comments like that. You see many turners will hone their skews, to my mind it makes sense as it is primarily a planing tool ( all this rubbish you used to hear about old turners using shark skin as abrasives when a skilled turner years ago would turn with a skew and finish with a rub of the shavings)(incidentally shark skin was more valueable to be used as shagreen but that is a completely different thread) I never saw the need to hone a gouge but....IMVHO if you are doing very fine(delicate) work a honed spindle gouge is a must.Try it on a piece of something like African Blackwood, used a chisel straight fom the grinder, rub the bevel and do a cut then do the same with a nicely polished and honed chisel. You will find that it takes much less effort to use the chisel and you get a much better finish straight from the tool. I was taught this many years ago by a chap who used to turn (and taught me to turn)Ivory. Now there will be those that will think that a material like Ivory could only be scraped, some think that of pewter too, but I can tell you that a nicely sharpened tool will cut beautifully both materials and do so producing delicate little curvy shavings.

[Derek]

I also hone my skew chisels. I also have credit card sized diamond card which I sometimes use rather than go to the grinder when the skew needs a touch up