Author Topic: Must be the weather!  (Read 15169 times)

Offline GBF

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2015, 05:55:25 PM »
Head is down john and I am staring at my feet. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Regards George
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2015, 09:35:55 PM »
Nuts

Offline GBF

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2015, 09:44:19 PM »
Trouble maker.
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

Offline TONY MALIN

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2015, 10:04:22 PM »
I'll stick my neck out and venture a couple of comments on your cost analysis John.
You have allowed for the minimum wage, but that needs to be doubled to give you average earnings..
You've included 20% for profit which is really an add on to the wages, and finally an inspired factor of 4.
So on balance if it were that or the workhouse you could sell more cheaply.


Offline Eric Harvey

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2015, 08:24:53 AM »
George,I have to say,your right,nobody should sell their work cheaply,or people in this country will always find it hard to make a proffesional living at woodturning,we need to get people out of the dark ages and into the real world,look at America,they respect and adore woodturning/woodart,things need to be turned around here and until they are,the undercutters will always drag prices down,cheers,

Eric.
welcome to my woodturning world

Offline ALAN THOMAS RPT

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2015, 12:50:26 PM »
Hi John
Don't get me started ;D. Your costings for making a light pull is an interesting exercise for non professional turners to have a go at. I remember doing a demo for a club (no name no pack drill ) and I was questioned as to why my work was so "expensive". I asked the gathered turners to price a hypothetical salad bowl of 10x3 in ash giving them an initial cost of £10 for the blank. The returned prices ranged from £12 to "about" £18. When I questioned their pricing calculations nobody at the club had figured in the making time (at even the national minimum wage ), the cost of consumables, rent on the workspace ( if you have a mortgage or pay rent work out the square foot cost of your garage/shed as a percentage of that cost) heating, electric or the price of transport to collect the material or postage from the supplier. Add in insurance and the fact I like to eat now and again and my salad bowl is certainly more "expensive".
I don't like going head to head with non pro turners over pricing but without a considered estimate of the costs they are undervaluing not just themselves but damaging the image of the Craft as a whole.
       
just one last cut and it will be perf...oh boll.....!

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2015, 04:17:30 PM »
Alan thanks for your reply, my sentiments entirely. Tony your point is taken but why should I sell more cheaply?

Offline TONY MALIN

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2015, 06:10:11 PM »
Well I didn't say that did I? I suggested that if you were destitute and if they weren't selling you could lower your price without making a loss. Based on the cost analysis and with my proviso re target income of the national average earnings you could sell at around £1.50. A weakness of your cost analysis is of course assessing on the basis of one off of a small item.

I think it's a useful approach without which you would have to start with a shot in the dark, but would be improved if done on a larger scale.

For anyone starting out they need to decide what to make to meet the market.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2015, 08:30:47 PM »
Trying to assess the value of something that you produce or do is always difficult. I have a problem in underestimating the value of my work and have been told off by a few people for underpricing my work despite trying to make a living and basing my costs much as John did with his summary.  I recently did a demo and got told off in no uncertain terms for the charge I was, making and given double what I was asking. As that was after I had done the demo I accepted the criticism (from a well known turner) and changed my demo costs. To some extent I have to say however that the cost you charge for things you make may dictate where you are selling them. Trying to sell a £100 hollow form off a craft fair table is unlikely to get much response so perhaps it is not so much a matter of adapting the cost to suit the customer as aiming to the right customer with what you have for sale.

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Steve Jones

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2015, 09:58:57 AM »
At the risk of upsetting people I will put my angle on this. I look at things differently to most of you as about 95% of my work is turned to order and I don't have to make items for sale. I did one craft stall when the school my wife helps out at asked me, because they were short on stall holders at their annual fayre, never again! I hold my hand out to anyone who can make a living this way.
John’s workings are very thorough but, my I add I have to pay rent and rates for a workshop so that to must come into any equation.
One of the hardest things in business is pricing anyone can be a busy fool but it is a thin line between too busy and not busy enough.
A light pull can vary, some patterns can take twice as long as others so they must cost more. I unlike most price up on an hourly rate + consumables but as I am working all day and every day of the week turning I do not have to price up allowing time for preparing or paying for stalls.
I will not make an item if I can not ask the required price.
I make light pulls for three separate curtain/blind makers so make them as John by the hundreds. I make a tear drop style and can produce 130 in a day start to finish. I spray these on a stand made to do 25 at a time which works out quicker than individual polishing on the lathe even though they are de nibbed and buffed on the lathe. so I price this as follows:-

Timber cost - £15.00
Lacquer - £5.00
Abrasives- £3.00
workshop,electric,water, rates, ins. etc. per day £30

 a pull at £1.95 ea  = £253.50
I make just over £200 a day to pay myself and all other costs (they are always popping up)

Now if I had to make one pull I charge a min order of £10.00 and in this case I would use friction polish and wax.

Now it is impossible to work this way if you are spending time advertising your goods and not sure how many you will sell and have to allow hours attending craft stalls so I agree with John he has to sell at a much higher price than I do. If I sold my light pulls at a craft stall the £1.95 would become £4.
So John my pulls are half your price but I am sure I am not doing you out of business but it shows how difficult pricing is as everyone has a different scenario.
And yes those people selling cheaply on craft stalls make it very difficult for professionals to make a realistic living, and I am so glad I don't have to do it.
The biggest draw back in my business is I don't get the chance to make some of the beautiful art turnings that many of you on this forum produce.


Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2015, 10:13:54 AM »
Making things en masse is as Steve says, cheaper than making individual pieces. I have a commission for tapestry bobbins. I can make one in between 4 & 5 minutes start to finish depending on whether anything goes wrong. The wood, because of the size, is usually offcuts and so theoretically minimal though I still add it to the cost. For the bulk order I can sell at £2.50 each and they order in batches of 50 at a time but get through several hundred over the year so I usually have a load part turned or blanked up ready. Something I do as I do other things as I know that they are going to be needed. If I sell them on line in the shop they are £4.50, to the bulk buyer I can do them for £2.50. My problem is with the more one of a kind things as I have a bad habit of undervaluing my work. Something I am seriously looking into as I have been sort of told off by a few more experienced turners lately.

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline ALAN THOMAS RPT

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2015, 03:20:06 PM »
I don't think that the costs/profit argument is particularly relevent to the hobby turner as production turning is a game that non pro's aren't bothered about. The real concern for me is the disinterest that is shown when valuing your effort and skills. I did production turning for quite a few years and there is little relationship between that and one-off pieces sold at craft fairs and the like. As long as turners undervalue their products the public at large will also undervalue them and continue to see wood and woodturning as valueless and then everyone suffers. 
just one last cut and it will be perf...oh boll.....!

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2015, 04:59:19 PM »
Actually Tony sometimes the shot in the dark works out better. ;D ;D ;D
   

Offline Steve Jones

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2015, 05:08:57 PM »
Alan, I agree with you 100% but you are fighting a losing battle  because the craft of woodturning is growing fast as a hobby. Many of these people look at it as a way to fund the hobby that they enjoy and maybe supplement their income. You can not blame them for that, they have no thoughts of how they effect the pros.
On the plus side the spin off from this is the craft is kept alive, and growing. This gives some professional turners the opportunity to make some money via teaching, books and demos. There is also a growing market for suppliers of tools and woodturning supplies.

I consider myself lucky to still enjoy my woodturning and am able to make a good living via production turning and the one off items I make as commissions, but this is now a very niche market and who knows one day I might have to produce one offs to sell. It does annoy me that the skill is undervalued and when I see the fantastic pieces of art that some people produce and the incredible skill required I feel sad that others don't appreciate them the same way I do and like you say the public have little idea what time and ability is required to produce these quality items. When they see turning sold cheaply they assume that is their value.
So while we agree as to the craft being under sold has anyone got ideas on how to address the problem?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 05:13:01 PM by Steve Jones »

Offline GBF

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Re: Must be the weather!
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2015, 05:51:36 PM »
Something that does not seem to be considered here is Income tax ant Accountants fees

I sell most of my work in galleries they pay my sales into my bank after taking their 45% or more.
Because I have a Website advertising that I do tuition I declare my earnings even the cash believe it or not I do not know whether the student that gave me cash works for the government.

Hobby turners do not pay Income tax or accountants fees.

Regards George
The man that never made a mistake never made anything