Author Topic: What price safety  (Read 16510 times)

Offline John

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What price safety
« on: February 21, 2015, 02:21:14 PM »
Following an earlier thread I saw this, how do they get away with items like this.
Tee lights with no safety cup.
I also saw load of these a Winchester Xmas Fair.
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/70632799/tealight-candle-holder-reclaimed-wood?ref=favs_view_5&atr_uid=19324515
John
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Offline Les Symonds

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 05:21:30 PM »
..... how do they get away with items like this....Tee lights with no safety cup.

John


....by a technical loop-hole, John. Trading standards offices throughout UK stipulate that there should be a non-flammable surface between the candle and the timber. The argument is, that the aluminium pot that the tea-light comes in, is non-flammable. However, we all know that using teal-lights without a proper holder is crazy. There have been too many cases to mention of house-fires caused by this sort of tea-light holder. Over time, the wood becomes extremely dry, even scorched, then one day it suddenly ignites. The least that we, as a responsible group of artisans can do, is to ensure that we all use liners.

Les
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Offline bodrighywood

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 06:26:26 PM »
I have seen candle sticks charred where the so called fire retardant brass holder was a sleeve only with no bottom and also have had t lights where the aluminium cup has started to melt. A couple of times I have been indiscreet enough to comment to other woodturners at shows selling t light holders and candlesticks with nothing at all about the danger and got a few rather cross responses. Won't stop me though as it is both dangerous and brings the rest of us who do it properly into disrepute.

pete
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Offline dr4g0nfly

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 07:04:52 PM »
Frightening to see, but we see it all too often and worse.

I've also seen wooden wall sconces for sale with candles stood on them with no interfacing material, as 'for example' but we all know where examples lead...
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Offline TWiG

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2015, 07:16:08 PM »
I spoke to someone about this a while back about this situation ( selling antique candle sticks ) and they were assured they are covered by a general caveat of ... NEVER leave a flame unattended !!  I think if anything did happen this is what an insurer will use to negate any claim . and not blame  the seller / manufacturer of any such item  ..  Terry ..

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2015, 09:27:45 PM »
I too have heard what Twig said but don't rely on it. I think all we can do is ensure the stuff we sell is safe and eventually the customers will get the idea and stop buying from unscrupulous sellers.

Offline seventhdevil

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2015, 09:41:45 PM »
i don't sell (or even make these) tea light candle holders (aside from one pair i was asked to make years ago) but would be happy to sell them sort of as is if i was asked. not wanting to spit in the face of anyone who say otherwise but i fin it hard to believe that the base of a candle flame can set alight the wooden holder.

i will do an experiment and light a few in a holder with no protection and see what happens.

if no one hears from me again you know the result ;D

Offline GBF

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2015, 09:58:42 PM »
I use these they are as cheap as chips
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-GLIMMA-Glass-Tea-Light-Holder-Party-Candle-Holders-Wedding-Tealight-/371245845673?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=640376649751&hash=item566ffa0ca9
In case the link does not work  Ebay Key words Ikea glass T light holders

Regards George
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Offline dr4g0nfly

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2015, 11:01:00 PM »
George I'm 100% with you on the use of them.
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Offline bodrighywood

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2015, 11:04:59 PM »
Me too. Thick glass, safe and cheap.

Pete
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Offline Graham

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 09:04:38 AM »
Seventhdevil.... I agree with you totally. The chance of a tealight setting fire to a piece of solid wood is VERY remote. You may have to experiment with varying conditions of draught and try 10.000 times before you get one to burn so leaving out the glass or metal barrier doesn't really matter. Probably no more than one death a year would result. Statistically insignificant.


( Just playing with you  :) )
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Offline Paul Hannaby

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 11:24:07 AM »
I spoke to a fire safety office a while back. He told me he had attended a number of house fires caused by tea lights being used with only the aluminium cup between the candle and a flammable surface.

Recommended best practice is to use something non-flammable between the tealight and the wooden base so why take a chance when they cost pennies.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2015, 11:50:40 AM »
It isn't just a matter of the wood catching fire. It depends on what the wood is, I have seen oak charred, yew seriously burnt and pine with a good few mill. deep charring. Add to that the fact that there is a good chance that the wood will have been oiled or polished, possibly varnished or lacquered and you have a potentially highly inflammable substance in contact with a hot metal. Not exactly a good or safe combination. It may well be fine some of the time but it only takes one incident to ruin someones life. Not an acceptable risk. Also, if you are selling your work you are morally, if not legally obliged to make sure that any and all risks are eradicated as far as is possible. I am afraid that I see food utensils made from laburnum and yew (but the poison is not usually in the wood!) Goblets finished with all sorts of oil, candles and t light holders with no inserts all for sale at craft fairs and I am sorry but to me that is just as bad as the foreign imports that we all decry. No brainer. If you are selling do it responsibly.

Pete
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Offline john taylor

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 01:10:22 PM »
This has been one of my hobby horses for years, and got me in trouble a few times at shows.

I have had several chats with trading standard officers about this and it is interesting how different views of the regulations are between different councils.   

At one show the TSOs said there was nothing wrong with selling items as per your picture as they confirm to the rules and safety info.   At another show in a different council area the TSOs made everyone with holders like your picture remove them from sale as they did not conform to regulations.

What was the difference well what makes up the candle according to the council that let them be sold just the wax, but, the other council said that the tin cup was part of the candle therefore you still needed an independent non-inflammable surface between the candle and the holder.   The funny bit about this is that the two shows were half a mile apart but in different council areas.

I have tried them without additional holders and while the wood does get slightly warm there was no danger of fire.   However one of our club members used to be a fireman and he has been to several fires started by candles and at least one of them was started by a holder similar to the picture.

Regardless of if you think it is dangerous or not is it worth risking your families life for the sake less than a quid?

john

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2015, 03:40:09 PM »
The point about the wax is important as well. I don't know much about it but a friend who makes candles has told me that cheaper t lights and candles are made from a wax that burns quickly and hot. Other waxes burn at a lower temperature.

pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities