Author Topic: What price safety  (Read 28374 times)

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2015, 08:59:39 PM »
Aha! just looked up Robert Owen, spot on.

Offline Les Symonds

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2015, 09:01:15 PM »
Frankly, I'm shocked that we have so many contributors who still seem to think that it's ok to make/sell/use tea lights holders without a  non flammable interface. I don't care what 'science' is quoted herein; I will go with the experience and the advice of fire service departments throughout the UK.

Let's quote a couple of simple example....
  • a tea-light left on the edge of an acrylic bath simply melted its way through the bath, setting the acrylic on fire (Wrexham June 2014)
  • a tea light left on top of a television set in Poole, transferred enough heat to the television for it to ignite (Poole, April 20124)
  • a tea light placed directly on a window sill transferred its heat to the sill and the sill ignited (Hampton Magna, August 2011)

...get real, people....stop taking risks with other people's lives. If you make tea-light holders, supply and fit a non-flammable interface.

Les
Education is important, but wood turning is importanter.

Ollie

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2015, 09:07:38 PM »
I would recommend LED tea lights. You can get them very cheap on ebay/amazon. If not you can get glass holders very cheaply from ikea. If you are really opposed to either you could just sell your holders without any candles and tell your customers to get glass liners like those from ikea?

andygc

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2015, 11:05:49 PM »
The melting point of acrylic is approximately 100 degrees centigrade. Once it has melted and it comes into contact with a tea light flame, the flame temperature is sufficient to ignite it. I have not seen anybody suggesting making tea light holders from acrylic.

There is a detailed account of the ignition characteristics of various types of dry wood here www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplmisc/rpt1464.pdf. It considers temperature and the time at that temperature required for ignition to occur. If anybody feels that they have details of fire incidents relevant to wooden tea light holders, as opposed to plastic baths and televisions, perhaps they could provide links so that people can make decisions based on evidence, not anecdote.

Quoting fire incidents involving baths, televisions and window sills is not really relevant to wooden tea light holders. Just providing a list without a link to the original report is no more than providing anecdotes. I have asked my Fire and Rescue Service contact if he can point me to any relevant evidence, but I won't get a quick answer.

I don't mind in any way at all what other people choose to do. I just object to them telling me what I shouldn't do without producing the evidence to support what they are saying.

Offline GBF

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2015, 07:44:58 AM »
What is that saying.

There is none so blind as them that will not see.

Regards George
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

andygc

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2015, 08:52:49 AM »
I've spent a professional lifetime assessing risk and making evidence-based decisions, and a few years managing an organization that daily did things far more dangerous to life than trying to set fire to a bit of seasoned oak with a small candle. I can see perfectly well, thank you.

Offline Graham

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2015, 09:01:24 AM »
There is also the business side of the equation of course. Maybe advertising a belt and braces approach would increase sales to those ( like me ) who are wary about such things.
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

andygc

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2015, 09:34:02 AM »
Graham, exactly. Professional turners must look to their market. That's why I wrote "I don't mind in any way at all what other people choose to do. I just object to them telling me what I shouldn't do without producing the evidence to support what they are saying." I turn for pleasure, not for a living. If I sell something it's for charity, and I make a point of not undercutting the prices I see professionals charging. I use tea light holders I've turned, so I know what happens to them, and I know they aren't dangerous to people I've given or sold them to. I don't see that there's any need for rudeness here like "There is none so blind as them that will not see."

Andy

Offline Graham

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2015, 10:17:05 AM »
I don't see that there's any need for rudeness here like "There is none so blind as them that will not see."
Andy
Indeed.
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

Offline John D Smith

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2015, 02:26:55 PM »
Hi Andy,
             I do not think George (GBF) was being rude for one minute but to me to use a Glass insert makes sense if there is a risk however small that may be and with a naked flame there must be a risk take precautions.Also it is wise to put a small warning label saying do not leave a naked light untended.

                                            Regards John
 
 
John Smith


andygc

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2015, 10:13:26 PM »
My Fire and Rescue Service contact spoke to me tonight, sooner than I expected. He is a recently-retired deputy chief fire officer. I explained that the point of issue was the safety of wooden tea light holders, specifically the type I have made and which he has seen, which is a spindle-turned block of wood with a close-fitting hole for the tea light, with no liner.

He told me that he was well aware of the dangers of tea lights and had been directly involved in a tea light television fire which resulted in fatalities. He said, emphatically, that there was no risk of my type of tea light holder causing a fire and that wood was the best material to use to separare a tea light from a television. He commented that tea light fires are the result of the way candles are used, not the result of a wooden holder catching fire. He also commented that wood has a relatively low flammability in house fires - that is, compared with other materials found in houses.

I regret that I cannot provide a written statement to this effect, so I suppose this post has to be regarded as anecdote. I am content that I have taken well-qualified advice, so I am happy to continue doing what I do, thus saving the additional cost of glass inserts.

----------------------------------

People might be interested in a commentary by a professional woodturner on YouTube.  Search for "a word about tea light candle safety"

Offline GBF

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2015, 10:55:08 PM »
Reminds me of the mother that went to watch her son in his passing out parade.She said I was so proud there was hundreds of men marching and my son was the only one in step.

Regards George
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

andygc

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2015, 08:39:18 AM »
Reminds me of the mother that went to watch her son in his passing out parade.She said I was so proud there was hundreds of men marching and my son was the only one in step.

Regards George
I have difficulty understanding what value you believe you are adding to this thread.

Offline GBF

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Re: What price safety
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2015, 08:43:43 AM »
Lighten up don't take life so seriously.
I gave my opinion earlier in the thread that in my opinion you should use  some sort of protection.
Another reason I use the glass inserts is because it makes the t light holder look better.
Also when your prospective customer looks at you T light holder they can see you have considered their safety

Regards George
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 08:49:20 AM by GBF »
The man that never made a mistake never made anything