AWGB Woodturning Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: George on August 31, 2018, 11:31:45 AM

Title: Craft Fairs
Post by: George on August 31, 2018, 11:31:45 AM
Hi Everyone,

I'm thinking about trying to sell my work at craft fairs, can anybody advise me about what sells well at them, also any tips or advice would be most welcome.

Many Thanks

George
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Les Symonds on August 31, 2018, 01:09:47 PM
Hello George....that's a can of worms,if ever there were one. It's such a complex subject that you'd need to tell us so much more about such things as........there's good reason for needing to know this. There are small, local craft fairs, regularly attended by a host of "crafters", some of whom buy stock in and sell it as craft work. The stock is often cheap and cheerful (or not) and there always seems to be somebody who virtually gives their stuff away because it's a hobby and they don't need to make any money beyond covering cost. The table-fee will be cheap and the customers will usually be just browsing and may well not want to spend much.  At such fairs you'll probably only sell small, inexpensive items.
On the other hand, there are well organised fairs with a good reputation, where the bought-in stock is not allowed and where hobbyists will not be undercutting your prices. Goods on sale are of a high quality  and the visiting public know this. They may well have money to spend and understand that the stall holders are asking a high price for a quality item. At these fairs you can sell big, artistic pieces that command a premium, but then, you'll be paying a premium for a table-fee

As you see, a straight answer to your question is tricky!

Best of luck to you, whatever route you pursue......Les
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on August 31, 2018, 01:20:34 PM
Hi George, as Les said there's a can of worms. Without telling you what to make I can say that quality always sells as does novelty or stuff that is different. Don't expect straight answers to your questions here as although turners are happy to share some information they are less than willing to tell you about their best sellers. Some of the bits I make and sell are not made by other turners so I am not about to divulge to many secrets(!) But I will tell you something that was told to me when I started doing craft fairs and that was this...".People that visit craft fairs rarely take their wallets out so what you need to do is make and sell items that takes the change from their pockets". Or another one...." People spend money on 3 things, their kids, their pets and their home, so make stuff to suit that". My advice is quit now while you are ahead :D but if not make a statement piece to attract people to your stall and then once they are there the quality of your work should sell itself. Hope this helps and good luck.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on August 31, 2018, 03:15:42 PM
Hello George,
I had a tot up and over the last ten years or so I have done over 100 events during which I get to meet the customer (I don't do shops and galleries as a rule). I must add though that I use the most ridiculous business model, that is to make what I want, when I want and how I want without any vision of how it might sell !! I am selling in order to move stock on and because it interests me to do selling events as an extension of my woodturning activity. Early on I gave up on trying to predict the things which should sell from my stock, it never worked. I have a good stock of "fifteen to fifties" but always have the three and four figure pieces as a draw to my stand. The same stock will be taken to a local table top show and a high end juried contemporary craft show. It works for me. So, my suggestion would be to tip your question on its head. Decide what you want to make, give selling it a try and then develop accordingly.
ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on August 31, 2018, 03:55:28 PM
I agree with the three previous responses, but have to add from my own experience that this is a tricky business at best. Out of 8 events I have done so far, I only recouped my costs on one of them, and the most promising event was a complete failure (i.e. all costs and no revenue at all).
Don't try and compete with the traders, they get their goods made in countries where the living wage is so low that you wouldn't even get out of bed for it. Don't try and compete with the hobbyists, either, as they have a similar approach to pricing.
In consequence you have to have two things: top notch quality and something that makes your work unique/different.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on August 31, 2018, 04:00:53 PM
I would add one more thing to Fuzzy's item, you also need a thick skin as sometimes it can be really demoralising, but don't let all of us doom and gloom merchants put you off, craft shows are a lot of fun to do (hard work too) and you get to meet some lovely people and sometimes pick up good ideas and good contacts.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on August 31, 2018, 09:44:28 PM
We do about 10 shows a year and they are a major part of our income. Having said that every one is a gamble and if you want to earn money you need to spend. Good shows, well organised, monitored and vetted will cost you anything from three to four figures. We make a profit from all the ones we do and have dropped some when they have come to cost covering only or start having bought in work. You need quality work, ranging from basic bread and butter items of a few pounds to three figure pieces that attract attention and most of all you need to have a good display that looks attractive. The biggest two failings most people have is that their displays look like a glorified boot sale and they undervalue their work. This also means being different. Aim to be unusual, varied and not the same sort of thing that you see so often. No offence to those that do them but bowls, pens and t light holders won't usually earn you much unless they are unusual and different.
Whenever possible we both demonstrate as this attracts people and also gives people confidence in your 'hand crafted' work.
Having said all that if you are just thinking of doing the smaller church hall type fairs then you are unlkikely to make much and may at best just cover costs. People going to them go out of curiousity not specifically to buy and expect things to be cheap. ten years of doing shows has led us to avoid them except where they are for a good reason.
Things you MUST learn if you wish to do shows

Learn to smile at ridiculous questions and have suitable responses ready
Be nice to those who know better and criticise your work
Be ready for other turners who will check your work for tool marks etc
Don't haggle, the price you ask for is the one you stick to
Wear comfortable shoes, standing all day is hard
When at a show you are an ambassador for the craft amd as such should be offering value and quality as well as a good disposition.
The cost of the show includes transport, food, accomodation if needed and should be allowed for as well as the cost of materials, hours taken to make things,power, acessories etc.

All this aside, as John said they can be great fun and you meet a lot of interesting people.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on September 01, 2018, 12:10:46 AM
Something that has not been mentioned is that trying to tell someone what to make for a craft fair show or wherever you choose to go is very difficult as each venue will sell different things this will only be found out by attending and taking a good selection of items.
Don't crowd the table with goods so that people can easily see what you have, if someone likes for example a tea light say to them I have others like this and pull one out of your stock. Always carry spare stock to fill that space from the last sale.
A friend of mine has three to four times the amount of stock out on display which is bunched up he also sits at the back reading a book even when someone is browsing. The first I covered above and the second in my eyes is a no no stand up and engage with the customer even if it is about something totally different from the items you have for sale it breaks the ice.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: seventhdevil on September 01, 2018, 10:50:27 AM
i only do one craft fair a year as i do lots of production turning but i love making bowls and need an outlet. it is in eton college so you get a mix of rich and regular at this one.

so far as i can tell there is no best seller as everyone has different tastes and like different shapes and colours. the others are right about quality selling though, i pick quality timbers and do the best job i can with the wood. have a mixed bag on display and have stuff to replace it with once sold.

don't be afraid to take commissions or say yes i have a bit of wood like that at home so i can make that for you.

being my only fair i don't invest too much into it except for the week leading up to it. it costs me under £40 to attend and i regularly make 3-4 hundred quid at the end of the day.

i think the best advice people can give you is to have some stuff on your stall that will draw the crowd to you.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on September 01, 2018, 11:20:09 AM
I forgot to mention, it would be unusual not to be offered a tree at some point over the weekend ! It becomes cyclic, do a show, get offered a tree, collect it and turn it, take the pieces to a show.... :)
ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 01, 2018, 04:56:22 PM
I forgot to mention, it would be unusual not to be offered a tree at some point over the weekend ! It becomes cyclic, do a show, get offered a tree, collect it and turn it, take the pieces to a show.... :)
ATB John

Got offered a fly wheel at the one last weekend LOL. Ideal fpor a treadle lathe apparent;ly. No thank ypu

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Bryan Milham on September 01, 2018, 06:39:38 PM
Everything above but a couple of quick thoughts;

You need 3 conversation openers, to get people talking

You'll be lucky to sell more than one nice item at a normal sized show. So make sure you have lots of small (impulse) buy items, that don't cost more than a few pounds.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wooddust on September 01, 2018, 07:25:38 PM
Just back from a show and we had a couple of people ask if we take "cards" Again something to think about.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on September 01, 2018, 08:14:20 PM
I forgot to mention, it would be unusual not to be offered a tree at some point over the weekend ! It becomes cyclic, do a show, get offered a tree, collect it and turn it, take the pieces to a show.... :)
ATB John

That is true at the last show I was offered a walnut tree trunk been down for three years at 24" diameter. And also a 12ft long piece of yew but no idea of diameter as of yet as i have to ring the man again next week.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 01, 2018, 08:16:32 PM
Everything above but a couple of quick thoughts;

You need 3 conversation openers, to get people talking

You'll be lucky to sell more than one nice item at a normal sized show. So make sure you have lots of small (impulse) buy items, that don't cost more than a few pounds.
Guess I'm lucky then!
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 01, 2018, 09:23:25 PM
Everything above but a couple of quick thoughts;

You need 3 conversation openers, to get people talking

You'll be lucky to sell more than one nice item at a normal sized show. So make sure you have lots of small (impulse) buy items, that don't cost more than a few pounds.
Guess I'm lucky then!

Me too.
The comment about cards is valid if you want to sell items more than pocket money price. PayPal or iZettle (we use the latter) both have machines that work through your phone and the one we use has given us no problems over the last couple of years.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 01, 2018, 10:30:27 PM
Totally impressed with our iZettle.( as long as you have a phone signal) I think they take 1.75% and the money goes straight into your own bank account. So much easier than the old Paypal system.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on September 02, 2018, 10:59:09 AM
Regarding payments, some of the large shows offer a credit card purchase system at a modest fee. Getting a signal can be a problem anywhere. I had trouble last year in a city centre location because I was in a basement and marquee shows in stately home gardens often give problems. I often resort to the old fashioned "click clack" card swipe system and put the details through later when back in civilisation. Over ten years of showing I have moved from one or two card transactions per show to as many as 50%. One guy I met refused to accept card payments. He insisted on cash or cheque (remember those ?). If a customer did not have enough cash or a cheque book he let them take the piece and gave them a stamped and self  addressed envelope to send the cheque after their return home. He said that the system never let him down !
On my stand I have "woody" quotes for people to read, photographs of mountains because I like them and photographs of statement pieces. All have provided conversation openers in the past ! One thing though, choose your opening gambit carefully, I see colleagues who pounce on people as they walk past the stand. Nothing could be more off putting. Let them show an inkling of interest first !
ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 02, 2018, 11:16:45 AM
A few years ago we found the same as John regarding phone connections but now we seem to be OK virtually everywhere. Both the phones and the networks are a lot better than they used to be. I have taken cheques but usually prefer not to for obvious reasons. A good 50% of our takings are now on a card and virtually all transactions ovder £25 are card. I agree with being carefull not to pounce on people. I usually just do a 'Good mornoing or afternoon' and after that depends on their responc=se. If tney are obviously studying sonmething I encourage them to pick up but apart from that I know how much I dislike people trying to 'sell' me things and apart from a bit of banter don't try and push it. I always say that making things is the easy part sellking is the hard bit and I suppose I am more fortunate than some in not being alone but having someone with experience with me.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: seventhdevil on September 02, 2018, 01:46:26 PM
only deal in cash myself and take £100 or over for single items but the rest are £20 plus so i guess there is an ATM in the vicinity.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Danny on September 02, 2018, 03:01:41 PM
Go for it George :) :)
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 02, 2018, 04:36:58 PM
only deal in cash myself and take £100 or over for single items but the rest are £20 plus so i guess there is an ATM in the vicinity.
Steve I only used to deal in cash at one time as it was so much easier, but I am now convinced that cash only loses sales 'cos a lot of people don't carry cash these days. I'm sure my sales have gone up since getting the card machine.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: seventhdevil on September 02, 2018, 10:31:58 PM
interesting, i've never actually been asked if i take cards at this fair i do but perhaps because i only do this single fair people just know that they need cash on the day.

it is right inside eton college so plenty of people with cash around (usually the parents of the students) but also us mere mortals come prepared with enough notes to spend or if they like it enough they just go and get the cash for it.

when i was doing 20 per year i was considering it though...

one time i literally saw a bloke whip out a half inch wad of 20's and 50's just to buy some of what his wife and daughter saw on my stall so as i don't do other fairs i don't need to have a card reader.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 02, 2018, 11:01:40 PM
"one time i literally saw a bloke whip out a half inch wad of 20's and 50's just to buy some of what his wife and daughter saw on my stall so as i don't do other fairs i don't need to have a card reader."
Unfortunately not many of this type of person about these days.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 03, 2018, 07:53:59 AM
Only place I had that happen was at a very small floating market I did recently in Bradford. Most unlikely looking person at the most unlikely venue. Every show is a gamble and different

pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 03, 2018, 07:20:24 PM
Just found this, last show with Mo, Ed Oliver and Karen Oliver. Joys of doing shows LOL. It rained all day and wind up to 40mph. Not the best day

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Dancie on September 04, 2018, 04:58:30 PM
But Ed still wore shorts !  :)
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 04, 2018, 07:39:53 PM
But Ed still wore shorts !  :)
That's because he can't afford a full pair of trousers.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on September 04, 2018, 08:11:06 PM
But Ed still wore shorts !  :)
That's because he can't afford a full pair of trousers.

Or just plain tight ;D ;D ;D.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: edbanger on September 05, 2018, 06:48:29 AM
Don't know what your on about it was a lovely day  ;D ;D ;D

Great to catch up with you both again Pete & Mo  :) :)

I've not found craft shows to successful. I charge my work out at a proper hourly rate (30.00 per hour), then add the costs of wood and a bit for consumables, build in something to cover costs, stand, living expense while at the show that sort of thing.

I sell piece's of my work and have sold piece's for 4 figures but someone has to fall in love with the piece before they are going to part with that sort of money. I understand this and turn the piece's that I want to make, but looking over the three years Ive been do a couple of high end craft fairs a year it's a bit of a lottery. So if your planing on selling work like this find yourself a couple of gallery's.

All the best

Ed
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on September 05, 2018, 11:40:19 AM
OK Ed, I know that this thread started as craft fairs/shows but now galleries is widening the context. Same rules about pricing your work apply but then you will find that the gallery requires commission. So, do you reduce your price so that the retail price stays the same after the gallery adds commission ? Or do you hold your price and then find that the retail price in the gallery is anything up to 200% higher ? That can make the pieces seem exorbitant particularly if VAT is added as well. Do you sell the piece to the gallery or do they want it sale or return ? Another can of worms  ;D
ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 05, 2018, 12:19:25 PM
Finding galleries that take wood turning can be difficult as well. I have found a couple but a lot that say no thank you.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: David Buskell on September 05, 2018, 02:39:28 PM
I use Paypal and iZettle for card sales. Both work well in most locations. Maybe not in rainy Essex though! We visited on the Sunday but the weather on the Monday was awful.It was like driving through a car wash on the way back home.

There are a few Galleries which will take wood items. One  we used over our way, charged monthly for shelf space and in return they took a small commission and handled card sales. Unfortunately the Gallery was not in the best place for footfall so those of us that were there, moved on.

I suppose we can't all be Eleanor Lakelin who can get her work in a high end Gallery and featured everywhere!

But, as Ed says, for every piece of wood you make, there is someone who will falll in love with it and press folding money into your hand to buy it. The problem is matching the piece and the punter.



Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: George on September 05, 2018, 02:47:25 PM
Many thanks for all your advice guys, I can see from what you have written that it's not a straight forward as I first thought.  However the advice that you have given me has enabled me to focus on a particular direction to go, bearing in mind the type of customers that I expect in my area.  Many thanks once again  -  George
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 17, 2018, 09:51:03 PM
Met a woman at Hyde Hall Bank Holiday event and talked to her about Japanese style hair sticks (Kanzashi) which we used to make but sold very slowly so didn't bother with them again. She has now come back to us and bought Mo's Koi Vase and ordered 12 hairsticks, 8 of them Kanzashi style. Nice little 3 figure order on the back of the show making it really worth while doing again. She is also very understanding about the time scale as we are off to Cornwall next week and then have Wisley the following week. Should be able to do the hairsticks when we get back. Doing shows is not just about what you sell on the day but on making contacts and orders that often follow on after.

pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: seventhdevil on September 17, 2018, 10:31:10 PM
i've just had the very same thing happen to me pete.

my one and only craft fair was on saturday but only made £250, however i did get a few promises of commissions off the back of it so that sum should go up.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on September 18, 2018, 09:44:12 AM
I just had the opposite result. Spent the weekend at Ragley Hall. Total cost £216, total takings £52. Chances for any commissions or follow-on orders: can't remember any.
To be honest, it was affected by quite some rain on the Saturday, and there were more people on Sunday. However, that did not result in any more sales.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 18, 2018, 12:02:56 PM
I just had the opposite result. Spent the weekend at Ragley Hall. Total cost £216, total takings £52. Chances for any commissions or follow-on orders: can't remember any.
To be honest, it was affected by quite some rain on the Saturday, and there were more people on Sunday. However, that did not result in any more sales.

Ouch, not good. We had a day of rain non stop at Hyde Hall so discounted it. Took £26 that day. Overall we make a oprofit at all the shows we do, some a lot some not so much. I think the secret is to make sure you have a wide variety of items at different prices mand a display that attracts people. Also you need to do the more upmarket, makers only shows.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: seventhdevil on September 18, 2018, 07:34:23 PM
i've never gon to a fair that costs more than £40. not worth the risk unless you can guarantee that you'll see it back and more.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on September 19, 2018, 09:15:03 AM
Well, Pete,

you've seen my stall 2 years ago at Henley-on-Thames. I had items on show from £3.50 to about £300, so there clearly was variety. In my experience (so far) the more upmarket I go, the more money I lose.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 19, 2018, 09:25:28 AM
I can only speak from my own experience obviously. When we started doing shows we did the local events and a few country fair type ones and found that they were all pretty much a waste ofd time for us. We made a small profit from one or two but geberally not. Since we have started on the exclusive, larger maker only shows we have always made a profit. It fluctuates of course but as yet we have found that the larger the show the more chance we wil make a profit.  You do need to guauge the stock you have to sell as well. Bowls, pens for example don't seem to sell well unless they are vry special. Boring things like ear ring stands, brooches and crafting tools I can't make enough of. More expensive items do sell but often they will attract people to the stall who then go on to buy.
As I said this is all based on our personal experience of shows and so I can't say it is a guaranteed way, just what works for us.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 19, 2018, 03:20:23 PM
I have just seen an advert for a show organiser, stands costs start at £675 for 2m x1.5m For me that would have to be an exceptional show to cover the cost of the stand, electricity on top of that mind,travel and accomodation plus food for the weekend I would have to take £1000 before I start to show a profit, who was it that said they wanted to do craft events? Just been in discussion with another organiser that wants me to demonstrate during the show, I said fine I can do that ,then they started working out how much my pitch was going to cost me!! Bit of a non starter there then. When clubs are paying me over £100 to demonstrate for 2 or 3 hours (which I think is good value for money) where do show organisers get off thinking I will demonstrate all weekend and pay them for the privelege? As far as I am concerned they can find another mug to do that.
Talking of demonstrations, I am doing an all day demo on Sunday which will include working with pewter and I have spent the day preparing for that, turning "blue Peter" jobs and pre-casting some items. Sunday morning I will have a 2 hour drive each way, 6 hours of demonstrating in between, at least 1 1/2 days prep and a day to sort things out when I get back home. A hard way to earn a living.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: TONY MALIN on September 19, 2018, 04:52:11 PM
I absolutely agree so why do it? There must be an inner urge somewhere.

Henry Ford made BLACK motor cars in America.
Glenn Lucas turns bowls in Eire. (I wish we could get him.)

As a former club treasurer it was my job to balance the books starting with hire of the premises at £36 a night. We could not run to a pro demonstrator every time so we have to offset that with our members doing demos for an ad hoc payment for expenses and hands on events.

In the end it all comes down to what the punters are prepared to pay.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 19, 2018, 07:25:01 PM
Bottom line if we don't make at leats  50% profit on a show we co nsider dropping it. Demonstrating actually works for us as it usually incurs a discount in stall fees and  often brings in commissions. OK Not for everyone but at the end of each financial year we are in profit and most of the money comes from shows. Cost of show depends on where, how long and also the organisers. £675 isn't a lot for a 4 day show in or around the home counties for example though I would generally expect more space than that and I would expect to make well over the £1000 from it. We enjoy doing shows but if we didn't make money wouldn't do them.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on September 20, 2018, 04:13:46 PM
Reading the final few posts in this thread opens up another chain of thought. The time away from the workspace might not be productive enough if one takes a harsh view. It is easy enough to clock the time spent on a piece but do we do the same when prepping for a demo or loading for a show ? As a crude analysis I add in those hours at minimum wage just to get a comparison between different activities. Demos and talks are us putting a bit back fundamentally. Not a lot of living therein. Local Guild Contemporary Craft Shows generally work well but I am lucky to belong to an active and well established Guild and can do all of their shows within a sleep in my own bed radius. The big name more expensive shows generally work well for moving on some of the higher priced items so I reckon on doing one or two a year.
ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 20, 2018, 10:49:44 PM
In reply to Tony's comments about there being an inner urge, not sure about that but I have to say that I enjoy my job and usually can't wait to get up and go to work in the mornings so that can't be a bad thing, especially at my age!! What is the saying? find a job you love and you will never work another day in your life? that's about right give or take some days.But the job becomes a way of life in the end, again not such a bad thing, and the feeling of being stress free and content with your lot has to be worth something,or am I missing something? (other than money)
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Sandy on September 21, 2018, 07:54:18 AM
That sounds spot on to me BHT!

Kind regards
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on September 21, 2018, 09:17:19 AM
Yes, these are all good things, but in the end of the day there are bills to pay. And if you are not making enough money to pay those bills, then eventually the hunger/thirst/cold/whatever will make your life so miserable that the joy of doing what you love doing comes to an end.  And for this very reason I cannot afford to attend shows where the outgoings exceed the incomings.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: willstewart on September 21, 2018, 11:16:44 AM
An alternative to taking cards (eg contactless) which is now normal at most local events is PayPal.  You can send/accept payments from a smartphone whilst at the stand.  I have used this at shows and it can work - not quite so slick as a payment machine perhaps but quite good and saves fiddling with cash.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on September 21, 2018, 07:06:10 PM
Yes, these are all good things, but in the end of the day there are bills to pay. And if you are not making enough money to pay those bills, then eventually the hunger/thirst/cold/whatever will make your life so miserable that the joy of doing what you love doing comes to an end.  And for this very reason I cannot afford to attend shows where the outgoings exceed the incomings.

I totally agree. I will not lay out money for a show unless I can pay it i.e. won't go into debt to do it. I also only do shows that return my investment (cost of show, materials, hourly rate for work, transport and accomodation etc) plus a profit that is acceptable. For this reason I have dropped several shows over the years and focus on shows that give me said profit. To expect to make a large profit at every show is unrealistic but return has varied from 400+% of my costs to under 100%. If it gets less than 25% then I look elsewhere.  As I have said before it depends a lot on several things, having a varied choice of irtems for sale and a good selection of them, having a display that shouts quality and uniqueness and being prepared to make a lot of things that perhaps aren't great fun but sell well. I have had two weeks of making nothing but christmas decorations and ear ring stands but 10 years experience of doing shows has taught me that these along with a few other faithfuls sell and often make up the cost of the show. Fancy art work may bring in the profit but at the end of the day as you say Fuzzy, we do shows to pay bills as well as because we enjoy them. Yes I love wood turning but it is also work and at times boring work at that.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: TWiG on October 13, 2018, 06:55:21 PM
Quite an interesting thread ..... I sell mostly through galleries but had a bit of a build up at home of stock that was unsold and then removed from galleries so I tried a few craft fairs this year , with similar experiences as others have mentioned above , weather affected 3 of them ( 2 with rain , and 1 with extreme heat and a world cup event !! ) I more than covered my costs but did not really sell as much as I would have liked too .....speaking to others I think I did pretty well indeed , but in all honestly I do not think it is really financially viable if all costs are considered to go down this route although I mostly enjoyed the events I attended though ....but .... selling work ( of any craft ) is not really easy and takes a fair bit of effort and time and expense for the  financial return  , but what choice do we have ????    Galleries are few and far between , I do not think turned items are good to sell on-line , perhaps this is why nearly all turners  trying to do it for a living do mostly tuition ,demos etc etc ....I will continue to do some craft fairs but I also do other work ...driftwood , furniture etc etc ...I just like creating things and realise that things will only sell for what some one will pay for it !!!!   and am happy with that ...
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 13, 2018, 10:12:28 PM
Quite an interesting thread ..... I sell mostly through galleries but had a bit of a build up at home of stock that was unsold and then removed from galleries

Be interested as to what galleries you sell through as virtually every gallery I have approached smile politely and say that they don't do wood. Those that do seem to add at least 100% onto the asking price before dsiplay making your work either unaffordanle or not viable for you. There are two exceptions I know of but am open to be proven wrong?

pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: TWiG on October 14, 2018, 07:45:28 PM
Hi pete ,   I have had work in quite a few galleries over the years , some are not trading for a long time , in places like St Ives , Truro , Tintagel , Dartmouth , and Salcombe  plus a few others  .... The main ones have been The Devon Guild of Craftsmen where I have been a member for about 20 years and also at Dansels in Dorset  , where I think you have some work ( or did ) , not all of my work is turned some is driftwood , furniture and carving but I have found galleries on the whole very good , I know they take a commission but they seem to achieve prices that are not achievable at craft fairs , and then if you calculate all your costs of a craft fair , stall fee , travel , accommodation ?, and time being there  etc etc ,then the net price you receive  is about the same ( usually less ) I have a few good friends who are artists and often get suggestions of places that they feel would suit my work , I get around a lot with work and personal activities and visit places that interest me and often get in to a conversation with Gallery owners .  I keep saying to myself to get to some bigger towns and cities on a sales mission but have never got round to it yet ......one thing many people ( artists and craftsmen ) have told me is that making is easy , selling less so , especially at the prices you would like !   I like to think galleries are my marketing department and I just get on with making .... but I can make more than I can sell  at the moment , but have no desire to spend all day in a dusty shed by myself !!!    Terry ... 
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 14, 2018, 09:31:53 PM
Twig there is nothing I like more than spending a day in my dusty shed on my own Well one or two things but you know what I mean. At one stage of my life I spent a little bit of time away from working with wood and although I was doing quite well there was always the need to be creative knawing at my insides not neccessarily from an artistic angle but just the need to make something. Now I make something everyday, shame the only thing I am not very good at making is money. ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: ALAN THOMAS RPT on October 16, 2018, 10:29:32 AM
This topic has rumbled around for as long as I can remember and there is no real answer to the question of what to make or where to be to guarantee sales of sufficient volume to make money at Fairs. I have done hundreds of fairs of all shapes and sizes over the years and where I have done well one year I have struck out the next. I do very few these days, most are local to me, don't cost much if anything ( some fairs don't charge if you demo ) and I look at them as a day out with my small lathe and as a marketing exercise promoting woodturning and also my courses and demo's. If I make any sales it is usually enough to cover my out of pocket expenses and it is always good to get out of the workshop and chat to people ( it gives me a chance to practice my sales patter as well! ). My only advice is to produce goods that are the best quality you can and charge a sensible price for the time and effort that you have invested it your work.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 16, 2018, 10:00:23 PM
I think you have hit the nail on the head Alan, quality always sells but sometimes the customer wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the
bum  ;D  I have found that customers are interested in the "back story" of a piece of wood or creative idea or even of me on occasions.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 16, 2018, 11:00:23 PM
Depends on the shows you do. Having done various types for about 10 years we have come to the conclusion that certain types just aren't worth it. Shows that we have found are a waste of time include country fairs, Christmas fairs such as Salisbury, Bath, etc. Big fairs such as Bath & West, Royal Cornwall. Trade fairs such as Harrogate and the local church hall, village hall fairs. For one reason or another these all fail. The ones that do work, at least for us are the dedicated, makers only ones that are organised by crafters for crafters and have a long standing reputation. They aren't cheap and naturally can't guarantee that you will make a profit but so far over the last 7 years that we have focused on them we have consistently made a profit. The biggest problem we see is when you get makers (not exclusively turners) who forget that they are selling to non crafters and lack variety in both work and prices and either price their work out of the market, too high, or at silly prices that scream cheap, too low. I accept that I have a distinct advantage in that Bodrighy Wood has input from 30 years experience of selling, designing, displaying and marketing quality craftsmanship but at the end of the day maybe what we all need to accept is that  selling, especially via shows is an art and a craft of its own. Those that say craft shows are a waste of time I am afraid just ain't doing it right.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Les on October 17, 2018, 09:06:18 AM
My take on craft fairs is that you have to enjoy doing them, many years ago I had to stop taking the risk of making stock and having a bad weekend trying to sell it and I moved in to other turning avenues. Over 95% of things that I make are pre sold and I found that the best way of earning a significant income from turning ( would be interesting to find out what people call a living ). My dad still does local fêtes and agricultural shows , sells his work far too cheap but is having a great time keeping him a young 81 years old, a good day for him money wise would not be the same as me. I agree with Pete when he says that you have to pick and choose the shows but you are still slightly reliant on the weather especially  if its and outdoor venue.  I now do one show a year where I sell my demo/magazine article pieces this is at the xmas bazaar in my local golf club, Guinness and bacon sarnies on tap all day, just perfect

Les
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: TWiG on October 17, 2018, 09:21:11 PM
[

The statement that quality always sells is often  stated  .....but it has to be "on sale "  and the main ways of marketing are galleries or craft fairs , they will not sell on a shelf at home ! , and for most people sales are required for income to sustain a lifestyle or hobby or the house will become clogged up with stuff  !! and the incentive to make more and hopefully improve/ experiment / enjoy  as a turner  will diminish .   
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: crazylegs on October 22, 2018, 09:30:56 PM
interesting and varied comments.
What about people who just want to cover the cost of their hobby?
We don't all want to make a living at it we just like doing it.
I have started selling a few pieces and I will fall into the 'far too cheap' bracket but I don't care. I am just happy when someone appreciates an object I have made. I do not factor in time, electricity, travel or consumables these are all just part of the making process. For me if I cover the cost of the wood and enough to buy another bit then I am happy the price of a bacon sandwich is a bonus!
Sorry if that upsets the professional turners but it is my Hobby not my job.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 22, 2018, 09:39:57 PM
interesting and varied comments.
What about people who just want to cover the cost of their hobby?
We don't all want to make a living at it we just like doing it.
I have started selling a few pieces and I will fall into the 'far too cheap' bracket but I don't care. I am just happy when someone appreciates an object I have made. I do not factor in time, electricity, travel or consumables these are all just part of the making process. For me if I cover the cost of the wood and enough to buy another bit then I am happy the price of a bacon sandwich is a bonus!
Sorry if that upsets the professional turners but it is my Hobby not my job.

Sadly though you may noot care, what you are unintentionally doing is undermining those who DO need to make a living and also depreciating the percieved value of the art and craft. Whether you want to make a living or not you and anyone else who sells their work is an ambassador for the craft and as such has a responsibility to maintain a standard not just in the work but in the selling. It isn't just a case of 'upsetting professional turners' but is an irresponsible attitude to the craft and I am sorry but to say you don't care is both irresponsible and demeaning both to the craft and to youirself as a woodturner.

pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wooddust on October 22, 2018, 09:56:13 PM
Whilst there is always the argument between those that make a living from anything and those that do it as a hobby. It not an irresponsible attitude it is just how it is. My work doesn't devalue a professionals work. (if it does then maybe the professional needs to look at what they are doing)  People always have the choice. Any piece is worth what people are prepared to pay. Now if that value increase because of a name then so be it. Not everybody can afford a wooden bowl for £100. Some people actually like to buy things from people they know and will perhaps accept a lower quality (with a price to match) because of that.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on October 23, 2018, 09:09:51 AM
I am afraid I am with Pete on this one. There is generally a balance between demand and supply at a certain price level. If the market gets eroded by hobby turners swamping the market with their pieces at rock bottom prices, that balance gets destroyed, and now the (generally unknowing and uncaring) buyers become used to buying at the new, lower price level. Since that level is unsustainable for a professional turner, he goes out of business (which, by the way, also means that most demonstrators and tutors leave the business). In essence you are starting a price war which you (and nobody else) will win, since there is no means of reducing production cost by producing larger quantities. In other words, in my view you are shooting Pete AND yourself in the foot, big time.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on October 23, 2018, 09:17:22 AM
I am not afraid to say that I am with Pete, Fuzzyturns and lots of other woodturners I speak to on this one.
ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 23, 2018, 09:41:50 AM
I have to say that if I saw a suspect woodturner just covering costs I would wonder if thy were declaring the tax that should be paid on each sale. If I ever found out that tax was not being paid I would let the tax man know, I don't mind you selling you stuff but let's make it from a level playing field.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wooddust on October 23, 2018, 10:04:31 AM
I am not afraid to say that I am with Pete, Fuzzyturns and lots of other woodturners I speak to on this one.
ATB John

So what is the answer? The professionals dictate the price? Never going to happen Although a bit of guidance wouldn't go amiss.
"Hobbyist put up their prices? To what? I don't need to make a profit if I cover my costs then I am happy and this is the crux of the matter. So far this year I have done one craft fair in my village and have sold £18 worth of turning then there was the £10 for my table so £8 that just about covered my material costs I suspect that most of the other fairs I intend to do will be the same. Conversely if I don't sell some of my pieces what do I do with them? There are only so many bits you can give to friends and family. If that model is going to "hit" professionals who sell then maybe they need to look at their model.

Where is the tax that needs to be paid on selling an item? If I am covering my costs then I have no tax liability. Hence another reason for a "hobbyist" not to charge more. I keep a record of all that I have brought and all that I have sold and so far this year for all the woodworking stuff I have done (not just woodturning) I am  -£300. Where is my tax liability on that. Those figures don't take into account my travelling to pick up wood, the cost of heating and lighting, cleaning etc.


Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on October 23, 2018, 10:37:01 AM
I think as an absolute minimum starting point you should charge your time at the national minimum wage, i.e. £7.83 per hour. Add your costs on top, and then you have a level playing field. I am pretty sure that most professionals would charge more for their time, but then they are probably also faster.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on October 23, 2018, 10:42:15 AM
This divide is not something new and has been going on for quite a while but I still see professionals in business (And I hope they stay that way). I don't think that anything that is said here will change that.

I am a hobby turner but also make wooden models for my own pleasure as if I stuck to turning alone I would end up with so much stuff that I would not know what to do with it, I do the odd fair but I believe my prices are not just enough to cover costs but are quite high (not as high as professional turners).

 I still manage to sell these pieces so it does prove that you do not need to be that low in pricing as to only cover costs. This also allows me to continue turning and also buy me any new machines and other items that I need which would not be possible if I just covered costs.

Hopefully how I price my work does not devalue the work of the professionals who do some great work. Some (not all professionals) help their business thrive by doing production turning which a hobbyist would not even entertain.       
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wooddust on October 23, 2018, 11:09:20 AM
I think as an absolute minimum starting point you should charge your time at the national minimum wage, i.e. £7.83 per hour. Add your costs on top, and then you have a level playing field. I am pretty sure that most professionals would charge more for their time, but then they are probably also faster.

So £18 pound for a small tealight holder I don't think so. I doubt that many "professional" turners or many other self employed person use the national minimum wage as a "charging point"

I am not going to change what I do in part because if I start to make a "profit" then HMRC will want to look at me. Doesn't mean I devalue what professionals do, as I do not see myself creating the same stuff.

Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 23, 2018, 11:15:16 AM
If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wood spinner on October 23, 2018, 11:21:09 AM
I had a turning friend who enjoyed making pens , He turned them out by the dozens , every time I visited he would show me what he had made , I asked " What do you do with them " ?

I sell them to a bookmaker who then sells them to his customers .

Must be lucrative for you I say , No its not , All I charge is the price of the pen kit , They cost me money but I enjoy making them was the reply , DOH !  ???
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 23, 2018, 11:31:42 AM
I am perhaps unusual in that my main income is from sales at shows. I have given up doing several shows purely becaus they became innundated with hobby crafters (not just turners) selling their work at prices that screamed 'cheap' and that is how the public see it. Whether you realise it or not, Joe Public assumes that the price portrays the amount of work, thought, skill as well as material goes into making something. Just because someone is a hobby turner doesn't mean that they have any less skill etc invested in a piece but if you just charge the cost of materials that is how people will perceive it. It isn't just a case of a level playing field as John puts it though that is part of it. Selling your work at a minimal cost is undermining the way people see crafts such as woodturning and that is what really gets to me personally. You and I and every other crafter selling their work have a responsibility to portray the craft as best you can and that involves putting a good value on your work. How can we do that when the view people get is that it is just something knocked up in the shed one afternoon and that is what people see and think. I focus on 'Makers only' fairs and work can range from £3 to £3000, people expect top quality, skilled people and good value and that should be the ethos for every crafter hobby or professional. No doubt I will never convince others of this but as long as there are people who can say 'I don't care' I am not likely to give up.

pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wooddust on October 23, 2018, 11:43:08 AM
If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete

Please show me where it says anybody who sells anything has to be a sole trader? As I have already said I don't make a profit so where is my tax liability. PLI is not always required (and is not a legal requirement in any case) depends on what and where you are selling.

Please when replying quote actual law not just what you think is right.

Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 23, 2018, 11:47:53 AM
If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete

Please show me where it says anybody who sells anything has to be a sole trader? As I have already said I don't make a profit so where is my tax liability. PLI is not always required (and is not a legal requirement in any case) depends on what and where you are selling.

Please when replying quote actual law not just what you think is right.

You also might need to complete a self assessment tax return if:

    "You have untaxed income. This could be, for example, interest that is not taxed before it is paid to you or rental income. If you are an employee or a pensioner and the income is less than £2,500 a year you might not have to complete a tax return but it is still your responsibility to report such income by contacting HMRC. If you receive other untaxed income and the tax due on it cannot be collected via your PAYE coding notice you will need to complete a tax return;"
Taken from HMRC site.

 
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on October 23, 2018, 12:05:43 PM
So, to be clear: you DON'T HAVE to register as a sole trader, but you DO HAVE to declare any income to the taxman. They will then decide whether or not to pursue you for some tax. Given the nature of these affairs, it is then generally easier to register as a sole trader, and do some shoebox accounting, which should make it very quick to see for the taxman that they are flogging a dead horse.

I think this really only becomes an issue of you do this on a regular basis. Otherwise everybody selling anything on ebay would have to register, too, and that's not happening, is it?

To be honest, I am not too bothered with that side of this debate. And even though Pete seems to think this is serious, I think you'd be able to demonstrated quite easily that they are wasting their time. What I am more bothered about is the fact that you do not value your own time and effort. And your statement about having to charge £18 for a tealight holder does intrinsically validate my comment about professionals being faster.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wooddust on October 23, 2018, 12:14:27 PM
If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete

Please show me where it says anybody who sells anything has to be a sole trader? As I have already said I don't make a profit so where is my tax liability. PLI is not always required (and is not a legal requirement in any case) depends on what and where you are selling.

Please when replying quote actual law not just what you think is right.

You also might need to complete a self assessment tax return if:

    "You have untaxed income. This could be, for example, interest that is not taxed before it is paid to you or rental income. If you are an employee or a pensioner and the income is less than £2,500 a year you might not have to complete a tax return but it is still your responsibility to report such income by contacting HMRC. If you receive other untaxed income and the tax due on it cannot be collected via your PAYE coding notice you will need to complete a tax return;"
Taken from HMRC site.

And if you actually read it in total : trading - the first £1,000 of income from trading or selling a skill is tax-free, for example selling products you have made. So as I have already explained there is no income.

You still haven't answered the question about sole trader though.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 23, 2018, 12:26:39 PM
Pedantic points aside I am dismayed that some would undervalue their own work. The time and effort that has gone into the making should surely be worth more than just the cost of the materials? I realise there is a value in the enjoyment of a hobby and I daresay that not all professional turners make the sort of money they should be making. But essentially what is being said is once a hobbyist has turned a piece of wood it has been devalued, and that can't be right either? Can it be compared to giving away produce from your garden?
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wood spinner on October 23, 2018, 12:35:23 PM
I made this walnut bowl , and IF I decided to sell it I would ask at least £70

The blank cost me £20

It was given to my daughter who asked for a salad bowl  :)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1936/45156870471_c7b87d3dae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2bNmLmg)IMG_3699 (https://flic.kr/p/2bNmLmg) by  (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150639903@N08/), on Flickr

10" x 8" deep
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 23, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
No point in continuing the discussoion re: tax etc as it is obvious that any advice will be ignored. In closing my advice came from HMRC when I first started out and my advice to anyone who is selling their work to do the same. Income is based on money taken for goods sold plus any other income which, according to the HMRC also includes pensions etc. If you earn less than a taxable income and sell work as well the total income is what the tax man is going to assess. If you don't believe me ask HMRC. If you are actually making a loss, taking into consideration cost of materials, tracvel, show expenses etc, you can even be in line for a rebate. I know a number of crafters to whom this applied.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on October 23, 2018, 01:31:12 PM
I made this walnut bowl , and IF I decided to sell it I would ask at least £70

The blank cost me £20

It was given to my daughter who asked for a salad bowl  :)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1936/45156870471_c7b87d3dae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2bNmLmg)IMG_3699 (https://flic.kr/p/2bNmLmg) by  (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150639903@N08/), on Flickr

10" x 8" deep

I have just come in for a coffee after starting a bowl which is 12" diameter and like you Dennis would expect a good price for mine as well. The wood cost me nothing so according to Wooddust to sell it for cost I would have to give it away at a craft fair.
And also like you this is going to a family member as a present(OK guys call me a cheap skate if you like but my family appreciate the fact that I have taken the trouble to make something for them no matter the cast.

@wooddust  Oh yes time to make it, finish, electricity and any consumables and if I did have to buy the blank as it started at 14" and 3" thick so to sell it at cost £30 to £40 without my time.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Wooddust on October 23, 2018, 02:46:43 PM
No point in continuing the discussoion re: tax etc as it is obvious that any advice will be ignored. In closing my advice came from HMRC when I first started out and my advice to anyone who is selling their work to do the same. Income is based on money taken for goods sold plus any other income which, according to the HMRC also includes pensions etc. If you earn less than a taxable income and sell work as well the total income is what the tax man is going to assess. If you don't believe me ask HMRC. If you are actually making a loss, taking into consideration cost of materials, tracvel, show expenses etc, you can even be in line for a rebate. I know a number of crafters to whom this applied.

Pete

Pete I am not ignoring advice I know it doesn't apply to me. Having already spoken to HMRC. Hence why I keep records of income/expenditure. I would just like others who say you must do this, and that to actually back the statements up with facts not just what they think is right.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: ALAN THOMAS RPT on October 23, 2018, 03:06:48 PM
I love this argument as there is no real answer apart from getting turners to value their time and skills. I am a pro turner and have to earn a living from my skills, whether that is from Gallery sales, teaching or demonstrating. I see lots of turners at shows and fairs selling their products ( good and bad ) at prices that reflect the cost of materials only and have no idea how difficult they are making life for turners who are trying to make a living. When this question of pricing comes up I often ask the turner what they did ( do ) for a living. Then I ask how they would have felt if someone stood along side of them at their workplace and offered their employer to do their job for the price of a cup of coffee and how long they would have a job. The question of tax is a tricky one but be under no illusions about having public liability and [i]product liability[/i] insurance. Trading Standards take no prisoners. 
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: ChrisF on October 23, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
Just purely from the tax point of view, HMRC rules have changed many times over the years.  More recently they have become very  much accepting of the fact that many people occasionally sell the products of their hobbies without looking to make a profit.  Such people are not considered to be 'trading' in the context of the relevant leglislation.  They accept that requiring such people to register as sole traders is not sensible.  In particular they say that you will only be considered to be a 'trader' if you:

 - sell regularly to make a profit;
 - make items to sell for profit;
 - sell online, at car boot sales or through classified adverts on a regular basis;
 - earn commission from selling goods for other people;
 - are paid for a service you provide;

They also specifically say:

"You’re probably not trading if you sell some unwanted items occasionally or you don’t plan to make a profit. You can’t use any losses you make as part of a hobby to reduce your tax bill."

In addition, you don't need to register as self-employed if you earn less than £1,000 from self-employment in a tax year.   If you are also 'employed' in your main job, that income is treated separately unless you qualify as a 'trader' (as above), in which case all income is considered a whole when assessing tax liability.

So under current legislation there is definitely no requirement to disclose any information to HMRC if you are selling product but not looking to make a profit. 

https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself (https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself)
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 23, 2018, 04:34:39 PM
Derek said" this is going to a family member as a present(OK guys call me a cheap skate if you like but my family appreciate the fact that I have taken the trouble to make something for them no matter the cast." Now I have to say that in this country we are slowly beginning to realise that an item of any description that was crafted with love and made specifically for an individual is more valueable that some tat brought of the shelf. I speak to many,many people that rely on craft for a living and they say the same thing, also, in America crafts people are very highly thought of. Just a passing comment.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 23, 2018, 04:38:40 PM
I'd agree with you John. I look forward to the day when woodturning is also seen as an art form not only a craft. There is definitely an upsurge in interest in crafts of all forms and as it isn't taught in schools very often it's also good to see it being promoted on the media a lot.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on October 23, 2018, 04:44:48 PM
As I mentioned I am only a hobbyist but feel that it should be an art form and not just a craft.

I may not be the most artistic type person but do love to lift my work in some sort of manor even if it is only to please me.

Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 23, 2018, 10:52:05 PM
Derek I never used to consider myself artistic, still don't to a certain degree but you will surprise yourself oneday when you have an idea of something to make that will make you realise we are all artists but we just need different amounts of time to mature.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 23, 2018, 11:18:33 PM
People equate 'artistic'with an ability to draw paint or sculpt but art is the ability to create things that stir the imagination. I was told for most of my life that I wasn't artistic because I can't draw a straight line with a ruler but over the last ten years have come to realise, as John said, we all have artistic ability, not everyone has the priviledge of seeing come to fruition. I like Picassos definition, "The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. (don't like his impressionist work though ) Very applicable for woodturners I think LOL

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on October 23, 2018, 11:45:37 PM
Derek I never used to consider myself artistic, still don't to a certain degree but you will surprise yourself oneday when you have an idea of something to make that will make you realise we are all artists but we just need different amounts of time to mature.

Well at my age I have no chance now ;D ;D ;D. Working on an artistic piece at the moment well artistic for me ::)
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: crazylegs on October 25, 2018, 10:13:21 AM
I do understand the point that professional turners need to make a living. However the argument that you should charge the minimum wage for your time or even more has a flaw. A hobby turner will take longer to make an item than a professional, on the whole. so should they charge more?
What has not been mentioned, and I am sure this will cause a few rumblings, is that a professional should be relying on his/her product being better and more desirable than the hobby turner. The skill and imagination should be obvious. This is what should enable a higher price to be paid.
Would you expect to pay the same for a similar sized loaf from Tesco compared to the artisan baker. No. That is because the artisan bakes a nicer loaf. That is what you pay for.
I am in no way knocking anyone as you are all far better than me and my work next to yours would be embarrassing however that would be reflected in price. The enjoyment of turning is the important thing. I am not devaluing anything. The customer sets the value when they decide yours is worth hundreds and mine is worth pounds. Now if you think my rough offering, oddly shaped and with tool marks should be worth the same ....
The value should be in the quality.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on October 25, 2018, 11:19:35 AM
Quote from crazylegs :- The value should be in the quality.
I couldn't agree more though how one goes on to define quality is another story. I don't speak as a professional turner or as a hobby turner but somewhere in the grey area between the two. The professional needs to maximise his or her output of saleable items or commissioned pieces over a given span of time. The hobby turner might be able to match the quality of the professional by giving the piece/s much more time. I really do believe that to then offer that piece at a price to cover the cost of the blanks is devaluing the time and or expertise which went into making it either as a hobbyist or professional. In a similar vein I notice in club competitions for instance, that some woodturners are able to give endless hours to the production of a piece. If I am making stock for the next craft show or working on a commission I don't stand a chance of getting a competition piece ready ! I have to wait until the theme or topic matches work I have in hand !
ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 25, 2018, 11:46:30 AM
I have always said that some of the best turners in the country are likely to be hobby turners. They don't have the pressure or time comstraints that pros have. Having said that if the work is of poor quality should it be for sale anyway? Whilst the time taken by a hobby turner may appear to boost price of based on an hourly rate what price is put on years of experience, skill etc that most pros have? When I do a show I have a card on display that says the following.

"When buying hand made
you are buying more than just an object.
You are buying hundreds of hours of
practice, mistakes, experimentation.
You are buying days, weeks, months
of fustration and moments of joy
You aren't just buying a 'thing' but a part
of the soul, heart, a moment of someones life
Most important you buy the artist time
to do something they love, making personal,
unique objects for others
Thank you for buying handmade.

Get a lot of people reading it and agreeing, crafters and otherwise. . Does this only apply to professionals?

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on October 25, 2018, 12:53:35 PM
No, this applies universally, and I very much subscribe to that myself. And to prove that point, I have spent considerable amounts of money on original artwork from otherwise unknown artists, simply because I love their work.
Back to the original argument of charging at least the minimum national wage per hour: This was simply meant as a starting point. I personally aim at around £25/hour (for retail pricing), with artistic value added on top. I know some production turners who will charge around £35-40 per hour, and that about matches out in the end, because they are about 50% faster than I am (in order to achieve the same quality). However, if you go to a point where you don't charge at all, then as the hobbyist doing that you can spend an infinite amount of time on the quality and still beat hell out of any competition. You are basically eliminating competition, and that's where things get problematic.
I don't think any professional has a problem with competition, they will find their niche and get good at it, and then produce a level of quality that commands a certain price, and if others want to get in they'll soon find out that in order to get the same quality they have to spend the same or more time, and things sort of level out. However, by not charging for your time, the whole thing goes completely off the rails, and essentially the only hope for us (charging turners) is that eventually you run out of time, since that is the only limiting factor for you.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Redtails4 on October 25, 2018, 12:58:37 PM
Hi
It's no though is it ? Why do the majority go to tesco's two reasons 1 we don't have a artisan baker by where we live 2 we all like a bargain?
When people stroll round these craft fairs they don't give a toss if the person who made  is
A professional or a hobby Turner  it has to catch there eye and be cheap.we live in a throwaway society, the majority don't give a dam about the asthetics of the piece in.
All  they do care about the price of the piece.
Look at the artists of say the impressionts school look at what people paid for there paintings it was daylight robbery look at the price of some of those paintings today.
There is a element of greed on the shoulders of the purchaser.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 25, 2018, 01:36:12 PM
Beimng [picky, Tescos isn't any cheper than the other supermarkets with the possible exception of perhaps Waitrose and most people don't go there either, it is omne of the lower fvourite ones apparently. More seriously I am not sure what sort of craft fairs you are talking about as the ones that we do have work for sale that is oftn in three or four figures. I agree that to some extent we are in a throw away society but there is also a good number of people who want and look for quality, artisan and artist created work. We have people buying pieces without looking at the price as well as the ones who look at the price and walk away. It is case of finding your market and focussing on it. If you wnat to sell in the church or village hall type of craft fairs I would agree with you but believe me they are not the ones that attract discerning customers.

pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: fuzzyturns on October 25, 2018, 01:40:48 PM
Yes, there is an element of that in all of us. And unfortunately Pete and all the other pros cannot wait until roughly 100 years after their demise to get a decent price for their work, they'll have died long before that (sorry, couldn't resist that one).
In fact, those people who really don't give a damn about aesthetics hardly ever end up at a craft show in the first place (they're too busy spending their money at Asda). I have had people on my stall saying "I could get a bowl like that for £20 from <name-the-shop>", to which I generally reply "Well, in that case why don't you?".
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 25, 2018, 02:05:55 PM
I have had people on my stall saying "I could get a bowl like that for £20 from <name-the-shop>",

It has crossed my mind to write a book of daft, peculiar and off the wall comments and questions one hears and gets asked at shows along with suitable and perhaps some not so suitable rrsponses.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Redtails4 on October 25, 2018, 02:15:31 PM
Hi
It's there fuzz people do go to fairs walk round craft fairs trying to find tomorrow's art that if they keep in the attic it will be worth a fortune in years to come .
They do this after they have shopped at asda or where ever they do there nose filling bag for that week.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Mike313 on October 25, 2018, 05:01:19 PM
My father, Lord rest his soul, had a maxim he applied to what he did in life. It was very simple - 'do nothing that you know will harm others'. He was a lovely man.
If I, as a hobbyist, make saleable goods and sell them without charging for my time, and am just recouping the cost of the material then I am potentially harming someone who earns a living doing the same thing.
Let me use the following hypothetical example: Let's say a hobbyist and a professional each buy a bowl blank for £20. Perhaps the hobbyist (as someone already stated), can afford to spend 6 hours perfecting a bowl that a professional might complete 2 hours.  After which time let us say - perhaps - we have two bowls of equal 'quality'. Then if I, as the hobbyist, charge my time at, say, £10 an hour I should be charging £20 blank + £60 time = £80 for the bowl. This is fair, because it allows the professional to value his/her time at £30 per hour and to still price the work at £80. But to sell the resulting bowl at £20 just to recover the cost of the blank is really undermining the work of the professional who is trying to make a living. To which I would say 'do nothing that you know would harm others'. Just my two-cents-worth. I shall now put on my tin helmet and 'get me coat' . . . . . :)
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 25, 2018, 05:52:18 PM
Mike you hit the nail on the head. Many years ago when I owned a joinery company I put in a quote for a frame for a local customer. I knew someone who had done work for him and he told me of forthcoming projects that I might get if my quote was a bit keen (read cheap) I put in a very keen quote but did not get the job, neither did any of my competitors. Turns out a college lecturer, who taught wood work, got the job and the rest of us were nowhere near his price. I could not work out how I could cut my price to the level of his until it was pointed out to me, he stole the wood from the college. Therefore the level playing field was tilted in his favour. There was no way any of us could compete and would never have been able to. We are up against something similar here (I know you are not stealing the wood).
Fuzzy if someone came to my stall and said they could buy a bowl like that I would correct them and point out that I only sell my bowls to discerning customers and not riffraff and so they could never buy a bowl like that made by me.
The question of the hobby turner will never be solved, if I was a hobby turner ,and I was once, I would look up and say it is my wood and my time and I will sell it for what I want! And the people that do say that are probably the ones that moan about how much it costs to hire a professional demonstrator.
My father always said never show them how to do it, make a mystery  out of it, to some extent I do this, yes I teach and demonstrate but some of the stuff I do or how I do it will never be revealed.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Redtails4 on October 25, 2018, 07:46:43 PM
Hi
John i knew there was something well dodgy about about a demonstration you did for a wood turning club i am in
No in all seriousness you are bang on .  I have heard  this argument in all trades and walks of  life.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: seventhdevil on October 25, 2018, 08:58:39 PM
this thread is mainly why i don't want to do loads of craft fairs to make a living at turning.

i do the one a year to get me out of the shop and i know that even though it's £40 and a 6-7 hour day i take home 2-3 hundred by the end of it.

was i lucky to find a niche market in turning with the skittles i make? possibly but i do know that if i was still making a living selling bowls then i would not be spending big money on blanks (unless it was a commission) but buying the way i do now on ebay.

i like to find old turners on ebay who are giving up or a relative is clearing out granddads shed and they had ex amount of blanks in there native and exotic so i buy in bulk.

when you work out that it's only a couple of quid per blank it makes it alot easier to make a profit given the time you sometimes put into a bowl or a nest of them.

i also like to get free (or as near to as i can get) timber from tree surgeons and process it myself. yes it may take a year or so to dry once roughed out but when you get a production line of blanks going you have dry ones to turn whilst others are wet.

the fact that i became a skittles manufacturer means i can keep a close eye on my money as i know how long it takes me to make a set and i know just how much the wood cost me in the first place.

for a set of 10"x5" pins there is about £25 worth of beech (1 1/2ft3 of timber) and it takes me 3-4 hours to complete a set. i charge £25 per hour for commission work so if it took the 4 hours to make and you add the timber it's only £125 max. i sell them for £160 per set at that size. sounds like i only get £35 out of it but when you realise that i make many sets at the same time i can easily get a good profit from only a few days work. sadly making bowls is what i love but selling them at fairs was not a route that would make anywhere near what i can with skittles and that is taking into account undercutters that have inferior goods.

in the end quality counts no matter if it's a hobby turner or not. if i ever come across a turner who happens to have tons of skittle timber knocking about and loads of spare time and can do a set as good or better quality than mine then i too would be stuffed.

in my opinion it is not the hobby turner charging what they like that is the problem, it is the general public not realising the quality product that a seasoned pro can produce.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: John Plater on October 29, 2018, 09:37:04 AM
Quotes from seventhdevil :-
sadly making bowls is what i love but selling them at fairs was not a route that would make anywhere near what i can with skittles

in my opinion it is not the hobby turner charging what they like that is the problem, it is the general public not realising the quality product that a seasoned pro can produce.

1. I have a stupid business model, make what I enjoy and hope to sell it rather than to look at what sells and then make that. Horses for courses I guess.

2. I have heard this expressed a number of times by woodturners and many other crafts people from other disciplines. There are so many openings for both makers and buyers of work in competition with one another as well as in competition with the high street. That is where showing with a guild or organiser with a good reputation for high end quality helps as most visitors appreciate what they are looking at. The problem is to persuade them to own it rather than just appreciate what they are looking at !

ATB John
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 29, 2018, 10:22:27 AM
Have to say Steve that whether the public apreciates the quality etc depends to some extent on where you afre selling. If it is a church / village hall then you may well be right but if you focus on the maker only, higher end shows with reputation and experience it is different. Still won't guarantee sales but goes a log way towards it.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: Derek on October 29, 2018, 11:21:52 AM
I will give an example of a show I attended there was another turner there and his comment to me was that my work was too expensive his tables were jammed packed compared to mine and had 4 time the amount on show mine I spread out a little with room between each item his looked like one big sea of brown, yet I sold more than him.
In this case selling cheap did not effect my sales hardly at all even to the point of many saying that mine was laid out better and the turning looked good quality compared to his. This makes me feel better as I was a little unsure with having someone selling turned work and cheaper at the same venue.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 29, 2018, 11:55:27 AM
Display is a major part of selling at shows. You need an attractive display not a jumble sale / boot sale effect or people don't bother looking.

Pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on October 29, 2018, 04:00:51 PM
I agree Pete but there is always that thought in the back of my head that if they don't/can't see it they will never buy it!
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 29, 2018, 04:15:06 PM
Totally agree John which is all part of having a good display. Just putting stuff on a table in a haphazard way is no good, people look and walk on by. You need a display that pulls people in, attracts people. Incite peoples curiosity as most non turner assume that turners just make bowls perhaps pens and chair legs. Show them somerthing different, excite their interest.

pete
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: seventhdevil on October 29, 2018, 09:17:28 PM
i've never made a pen in my life...

pete you probably wouldn't like my stand at Eton then as i tend to put out as many as i can but i do try to make it look somewhat attractive (if it can be) as my thinking is i they don't like the first one the clap eyes on they will most likely see another that tickles their fancy.
Title: Re: Craft Fairs
Post by: bodrighywood on October 29, 2018, 09:21:49 PM
You aren't selling to me Steve so what works for you is what counts.  This is the sort of stand we have at shows, bigger or smaller depending on the location. Works for us.

Pete