AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => AWGB News & Announcements => Topic started by: Dave Atkinson on October 15, 2015, 11:42:22 AM
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Following our Seminar this year the Trustees have reviewed the comments by delegates, the suitability of the venue and the Seminar finances. The Seminar was well received by all who attended but many commented that the site layout at Loughborough meant lots of walking between the accommodation, seminar lecture halls and the lunch facilities. Sadly we were unable to attract sufficient numbers to break even on the costs and this year the Seminar ran at a significant loss.
Therefore we have decided to review the whole Seminar process. Accordingly, the next Seminar will not be held until 2018. We are spending the next few months investigating alternative venues, costs, possible sponsorship, programme options, and publicity. We will be asking for opinions from a selection of the membership. Based on the results of this work we will be in position to start organising the next Seminar around the middle of next year.
The Seminar is open to everyone. You do not have to be an experienced woodturner or a member of the AWGB. It is a fantastic experience and one that you will never forget.
If you have any suggestions about how we could improve the Seminar experience, or presenters you would like to see please email me on vicechair@awgb.co.uk
Cheers Dave
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Hi Dave,
It is a great shame that the Seminar made a loss this can only be down to apathy amongst Woodturners for what is available at the Seminar
is value for money. It must be so disheartening for the AWGB Committee after all the hard work they have put in.Thank you to you and the Committee.
Kind Regards John
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Dave,
Why not open up the list of presenters we would like to see as a general discussion, might trigger some more names for you? Try starting with Clewes, Ellsworth, Fisher, Kelle and Holt for a start. All USA or Canada so include Wessells from South Africa plus some of the guys from Australia and New Zealand - Brendam Stemp would be a great one to get!
As John says,the seminar does give value for money but there's always a lot of calls on woodturners money so people are getting choosy where they go.
One idea to improve the experience might be to cut down on the demos and include some panel discussions on relevant topics - can provide ideas on this for you if needed.
Regards
David
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I agree that the above names would be very attractive, but they are probably quite expensive, too. Flight tickets from New Zealand/Australia are not cheap, either.
I don't have a problem with the walking distance, but I realize that this may be more tricky for some. I believe somehow we need to attract more sponsorship. Not sure how this can be done, though.
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Can we have it at a different time of year please.
I like a lot of others have problems with the dates as I am usually tied up with family things at that time of year. I realise the reason for the dates is the availability of the uni etc but if you are looking at other venues will you bear this in mind please.
john
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Sadly we were unable to attract sufficient numbers to break even on the costs and this year the Seminar ran at a significant loss.
I assume that this wasn't a case of the seminar being fully booked and someone getting their sums wrong on how much to charge, but the loss is down to insufficient numbers attending.
Maybe as someone who looked at attending the seminar, but chose not to, my observations might be of use.
From what I read on the web site there appeared to be only one option; three days attendance, paying for two nights in university accommodation with provided food. The cost of this package was very reasonable, if you were there all three days.
However I couldn't commit to three whole days attendance and I've stayed in university digs in the past and whilst they're cheap, they're also pretty basic and unappealing. I also live within commuting distance for one or two days attendance, so accommodation might not have been required.
As I've never been to an event like this before, two hundred quid for maybe only a day starts to become an expensive indulgence.
Some of the presenters held little interest for me either.
Should you should consider a 'day rate' ?
That way people can just pay for the days they wish to attend and don't have to pay for accommodation they either don't want or need.
I also suspect the problem here is that the seminar might get compared to other turning events like the Red Rose's two days at Daventry and the Yandles show in autumn, both of which have good reputations and are free to attend.
There's probably a market for smaller one or two day events a few times each year with more local (cheaper) demonstrators maybe in conjunction with sponsors like Yandles, Axminster, Sorby etc.
Then just having the flagship residential events every four or five years with really world class contributors that would draw an international crowd willing to pay enough to break even.
many commented that the site layout at Loughborough meant lots of walking between the accommodation, seminar lecture halls and the lunch facilities.
That sounds like just grumpy old men having a moan.
There are venues that have all the facilities close together, but they cost a lot to rent and stay in. For a low cost event like this, universities almost certainly offer the best value venues.
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Hello PaulH,
Reading your comments (I don't know how to insert a Quote) in answer to the Accommodation that was excellent.(Better than Digs)
As for there only being one option you obviously did not understand the booking form the instant Gallery was open to the general public FREE.and there were other options.
you cannot possibly compare walking around Yandles or the Daventry events with the Seminar If so you must live on another Planet ???
As for your comment about Grumpy old men having a moan I am OLD sometimes Grumpy But I support the AWGB try it sometime ::)
Regards John
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Thank you for all your comments and suggestions. We will review these and more (keep them coming) as we continue to look at our options.
Best regards Dave
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I managed to get to the seminar for the first time this year and have to say that whilst the demonstrations are undoubtedly a big attraction they aren't the only reason for going. Meeting other tunrers, be they famous or not, the social aspect, and the overall sense oif belonging to a group of like minded people was special. I wouldn't like to think of the organisation involved but know from talking to one or two of you there that the effort pout into it by a small number of people is immense. Accomodation at the campus was all that was needed as far as I was concerned, clean, comfortable and apart from getting lost a couple of times I have no complaints whatsoever. A massive thank you to all of you who put it together for us.
pete
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Like Pete this was my first time and and enjoyed it there was so much going on and meeting and sharing time with other woodturners was a great big plus for me.
It's a shame that the next event is now going to be three years away, I for one would love to see it as an annual event but understand if it's making big losses then the AWGB would not be around for too long.
Talking to you guys that have put it together I could see the effort that was put in was eminence the reward for the AWGB team must have been the positive feedback from all of us that came. The disappointment must have been the lack of support that the event received after all that hard work.
Ed
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A shame for all the hard work people put in, but what with apathy and the usual bovine waste the usual people start to spout from the sidelines in such situations
it is to be expected.
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Having never attended the seminar I may be talking out of turn, but I feel sorry for the people who put an incredible amount of time into this event.
I believe one of the best ways for anyone to learn is by watching an expert demonstrating his skills.
The Seminar had an incredible line up of highly skilled craftsmen and the work involved in putting this event together must be immense. It is a shame that so many turners will spend a fortune on tools and wood but will not spent on learning how to improve their skills.
Maybe the selling of the event needs to push single days attendance without accommodation. A change of venue will give the chance to stage the seminar outside the main holiday season giving those committed to family holidays a chance to attend.
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Speaking as one who has helped set it up and has attended just as a punter I can say that the event really is value for money but there is the rub, money. Before I can spend up to £400 attending an event I have to justify that amount of money being spent from the family purse. As a self employed woodturner I can offset some of the costs against my business, especially as some of the techniques I learnt will be used in the operation of my business,so it comes under the heading" training".
I can also see that to spend £400 on a hobby is a large investment which once again some people will have difficulty in justifying. Now I'm not a golfer but I imagine membership of some golf clubs would cost that. I think it should also be remembered that we are only just emerging from a recession which has hit many people very hard so they will be watching their pennies even closer now.
When I was the SW rep I tried to organise a mini seminar in the west country,those involved put an awful lot of work in, we had a venue, demonstrators, catererers and traders all lined up. What let us down was the apathy of the clubs who pulled out one by one and left us wondering why they offered their support in the first place. It takes the wind out of your sails and makes you question why you put yourself out to organise anything. But when you think that most woodturning clubs are made up of old men whose only ambition in life is to remember the way home it comes as no surprise.
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Hi
There are a couple of comments about daily attendance. That has always been an option. This time we charged it at £90 which included lunch. We get charged just under £33 by the venue per delegate per day and this includes lunch. The rest goes towards the cost of the event (and we should have charged more!)
Question: Would you pay £90- £100 to come for a day? I suspect the answer is yes because those who have posted are (in the main) people who have been, or would consider coming in the future, so in some sense we are preaching to the converted!. What about the other 200 or so who have viewed the thread and not posted? I suspect their answer is no.
I don't actually think it's apathy either. When I look around my club most are hobby turners, the average age is over 70 and whilst they enjoy the club demos and the chat once a month I wouldn't class most of them as enthusiasts. I think to spend £400 plus fuel and spends for a weekend you have to be an enthusiast.
If you've read this thread and not posted please let me know what you think. If you don't want to "go public" send me a PM.
Cheers Dave
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That has always been an option.
A rather well hidden option.
Question: Would you pay £90- £100 to come for a day?
Yes, for the right speakers/demonstrators, depending on location.
Some of the other comments here haven't exactly suggested that attending a AWGB event will be a particularly welcoming one for those of us that aren't in the clique.
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Paul,
These were the options for attendance listed on the website as part of the online booking. The same list was in Revolutions and on the paper booking form.
A - Full attendance at seminar including campus accommodation
(en suite room), all meals and seminar banquet £ 388.00 £ 40.00 £ 348.00
B - Full attendance at seminar including dinner on Friday and Saturday
but NO overnight campus accommodation £ 301.00 £ 40.00 £ 261.00
C - Friday attendance (includes lunch but not dinner) £ 62.25
D - Saturday attendance (includes lunch but not dinner) £ 93.25
E - Sunday attendance (includes lunch) £ 93.25
F - Add Dinner Friday £ 21.00
G - Add Dinner Saturday £ 31.25
H - Companion coffee/tea and lunch per day £ 33.70
I'm not sure what you are referring to about the clique but from the responses here, I would say all those who attended were made to feel welcome and without exception enjoyed the experience.
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.....as part of the online booking....
I hate to point this out, but you're wrong about that.
Even when going into the online booking page there were no options about daily attendance, only what food choice you wanted.
Look at the archive of the pages concerned;
https://web.archive.org/web/20150221053341/http://www.awgb.co.uk/seminar-2015/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150221053230/http://www.awgb.co.uk/seminar-booking/
The same list was in Revolutions and on the paper booking form
Which only AWGB members see.
If the AWGB would like to attract non-members to attend the event, they need to consider how to ensure that potential attendees get enough information to make sure they're aware of all the options available to them.
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The options were on the payment page which followed the booking page and with hindsight (that wonderful tool!) we should have listed them on the first page. Getting the word out to a wider audience is of course something we were keen to do although we did publish the event in Woodturning.
Something for us to consider next time is publicity and it is at the top of our list)
And can I re-iterate Paul's point - there isn't a clique. We do our best to welcome everyone, which included people from around the world. People do come on their own and one or two found it difficult to integrate with people who came with their pals. But that's nothing we can affect as organisers although I do appreciate it can be difficult sometimes to get talking to people when you don't know anyone.
Cheers Dave
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I always found luchtime was a good time to talk to people and make new friends. Sit at a table of strangers and ask who they saw this morning or who they will see this afternoon and leave the table as friends.
It really is a friendly event, in fact there can be so many friends there you just don't have time to speak to all of them.
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Breakfast, lunchtime or in the bar at dinner time. I am not the type of person who easily talks to strangers but as we all had one thing in common it was easy to strike up conversations at these times as well as in between demos. Even those that some may see as elite such as the better known turners were approachable and easy to talk to.
Pete
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I have to say I've only been woodturning for just under two years, so this was my first seminar I took my wife along as she wanted to see what it was all about I met lots of people some from the forum other form the committee and some of the better known turners and no body seem to be cliquey. In fact quite the opposite.
I asked Mark Sanger about some punches that had used and he made a point of finding me later in the day tool box in hand to show me what he used and gave me details of where to get them.
So much can be learnt when you have so many woodturners in one place all with the common interest.
I will without doubt be going to all future seminars and would recommend anyone that has not attended one to date too take the time to go along you won't be disappointed.
Ed
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Paul,
All the options were there on the booking pages and as I said before, they were on the paper form too, which was also on the website for anyone to download and use.
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Perhaps one thing to really focus on is as said the publicity. To some extent I don't think that this need be just the role of the organisers either, many of us use the social media and have contacts with many turners all over the world who probably have no connection to the AWGB but either turn or are interested in turning. I personally can think of a number of turners in this country I am in contact with who don't belong to clubs and have no affilliation with the AWGB. We can all make noises about what could be done and then sit back and expect the committee to do it but after talking with some of them I was amazed at the amount of work that they put into keeping the AWGB afloat and functioning. Perhaps the solution doesn't lie so much with them as with all of us to promote and advertise these things as much as we can. Same problem as mentioned in another thread regarding participation in clubs. We all (and I am generalising so don't shout at me LOL) can be guilty of talking more than doing.
Pete
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All the options were there on the booking pages and as I said before,
and you're still wrong.
Have you looked at the actual pages served, as I linked to above ?
There is absolutely no mention of being able to attend on a daily basis.
I'm trying to help you here. Maybe someone should have put the options on the site, but they simply weren't there.
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PaulH....why, when you had the opportunity beforehand, did you leave it until now to voice these issues? Surely if your intentions are to be supportive they should have been raised BEFORE the event.
Rick
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.why, when you had the opportunity beforehand, did you leave it until now to voice these issues?
Because Dave asked for comments.
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On the cost of the seminar surely as others have said it not just about the money. I choose not to stay in the pre arranged accomadation I choose to stay in the hotels, this means I take the other half and we have a mini break, I go to the seminar and she spends my money then we meet up for dinner and discuss our day. Wizardry in wood is next year in October, I will book my train seats and hotel as soon as I can (Trowbridge to London £11 each way earlier this year).
We sometimes take in a show or save up and eat somewhere nice, sometimes we just go for a wander but the who;e thing is it is an enjoyable time. You can't put a value on that.
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Hi PaulH,
I find your comments most offensive and unnecessary it's the ones who do NOTHING that call the ones that do all the work a Clique the easy answer is join the clique and work your socks off which the members who organise the Seminar do. As some one said why wait until now to make these comments if you was interested in a days attendance why didn't you ask but it has been proven you didn't understand the booking form so get off your high horse and crawl back into your shaving. >:( >:(
John
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Earlier in the year I thought about going to the seminar , however as it got nearer to the time I started to consider how much it would cost .... travel from Devon , attendance fees , accommodation , time away from work and other interests etc and after realising it would cost about the same as a new chainsaw I just could not justify it to myself so I did not go . When you consider how many turners there are in the UK then consider how many are serious about turning ( most I would guess are retired and hobby turners ) and for reasons others have said ... holidays etc .. unfortunately it would appear not many are willing to pay the subsequent costs just to watch demos etc .
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As I remember it there were 200 delegates at the seminar, can I ask how many you actually needed to break even ?
From my point of view as a retired hobby turner the weekend was most enjoyable and instructive but in view of the distance and hills involved from accommodation to lecture hall ( for most, luckily I got lifts ) thank God it wasn't raining !! :)
Was it worth the money ? Well...... I remember the pleasure of being there rather than the cost so yes, it was worth it.... but that doesn't stop it being a lot of money for a weekend and the question of whether I would be prepared to pay £450 next time made me frown a bit.
I have 3 enduring memories of the weekend. I got to see and learn from several 'famous' turners, Everyone was extraordinarily friendly and cheerful, and I made 1 or 2 new friends. Cliques ? Neah, no sign of that.
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Morning all
Can I say two things:
Firstly I find nothing offensive in any of the comments about the seminar. I had heard, privately, some comments about the difficulty of integrating if you are on your own and about the cost.
Second I started this thread to let you know what we are doing and I want to hear all comments warts an all!
We won't fix it here, but I have had a number of suggestions via email and there are some in here.
Please keep them coming. If you don't agree that's fine. But please don't let it degenerate into personal comments about other posters.
Thank you for your support. It is your association and we need your input.
As for the £450 that is around what we should have charged to break even. And I did allow a tenner for cost increases over time.
Cheers Dave
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So we needed another 40 or so delegates to break even. Maybe another 100 to make a decent profit for the funds.
How many could the venue cope with ?
The problem is you can only guess at why that many didn't book in the first place.
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So we needed another 40 or so delegates to break even.
or charge £20 a day more.
The problem is you can only guess at why that many didn't book in the first place.
You could start to get an idea from the number of hits on the web site on the promotional pages and booking pages. Some careful analysis should help get an understanding if a lot of people sought information and didn't proceed with a booking.
I hope the organisers have polled their attendees with a survey (eg the free services like https://www.surveymonkey.com/ ) Besides gauging the overall satisfaction people got from the event, it should help to find out if the cost could rise enough to break even in future.
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For me it was about justifying to my Wife Sue spending £500 00 on myself for three days entertainment when I could have taken both of us away for a weeks holiday in West Wales for the same money.
I went to the one before and enjoyed it but for me it was probably a one off and as for value for money I think it is great value for what you get.
For me it just seemed selfish and self indulgent to spend all that money on myself.
Regards George
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The main reason I didn't go was because as a very new turner I doubted I would get enough from it to be worthwhile. I was however a very close run thing and in the end other calls on my time tipped the balance. The cost for a (very) full weekend seems quite reasonable and I fully expect to attend next time.....shame it's going to be three years.
I do wonder whether more could be done to generate more 'excitement' around the event. Facebook was really very quiet and given the number of turners who regularly use it, and the various woodturning groups on there, it seems an obvious and relatively cheap channel for publicity (we use it extensively and very successfully for a number of large events I help organise). More photos and good quality videos of previous events would help generate more interest and give a real flavour of what to expect.
First timers will always be a little tricky to attract in numbers. One reason I decided against was that many, if not all, of the demonstrations looked like they would be so far above my skill and experience level that I was unlikely to learn much from them. I enjoy watching real skill and talent in action as much as the next man, but if I'm paying good money to be there I really want to have a good opportunity to learn as well. Being shown very clearly how to shear scrape properly would probably be of much more practical benefit to me than watching Mark Sanger demoing advanced hollowing techniques. Being able to mix and match real learning opportunities with inspirational demos would make the event much more attractive to me and make the cost more justifiable (to she to whom it must be justified ::) ).
Maybe there could be a slot each session aimed at the less experienced turner? Maybe a separate gallery, or a section within the main gallery for turners with less than 2 years experience to shown their work? I do think making sure that us newbies feel fully involved and catered for is important, you need them to keep coming in at the bottom as the more experienced fall off the top(!).
Just my thoughts for to take or leave as you see fit ;D ;D
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For me it just seemed selfish and self indulgent to spend all that money on myself.
You're a professional yes ? so it's a business expense fully tax deductible.
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I doubt the taxman would see it that way going of for a weekend jolly and expecting the taxpayer to subsidise it.
Regards George
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Maybe there could be a slot each session aimed at the less experienced turner?
From what I've read about the event, it's pitched at being a world class elite seminar. In that context it wouldn't be appropriate to add novice content.
I would have thought that you would still learn a lot from an event like this if you have some understanding of the basics, but total novices would be better advised to invest in some practical hands on tutoring instead.
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I doubt the taxman would see it that way going of for a weekend jolly and expecting the taxpayer to subsidise it.
Not at all, others here have done exactly that (see reply #12). Attending training courses and professional seminars are totally legitimate business expenses, ask your accountant or phone the tax office for confirmation.
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I doubt the taxman would see it that way going of for a weekend jolly and expecting the taxpayer to subsidise it.
Not at all, others here have done exactly that (see reply #12). Attending training courses and professional seminars are totally legitimate business expenses, ask your accountant or phone the tax office for confirmation.
I don't need to you seem to have all the answers
Regards George
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I started turning about 18 months ago, and had a few days of tuition from Mark Hancock and George Foweraker. When I heard about the seminar, I asked Mark whether this would make any sense for me as a novice (I had similar doubts to Chris), and got back a resounding "absolutely, this will take your wood turning to the next level". And he was right.
Although I am a member of two clubs, I did not go as part of a party or "clique". And I had absolutely no problem making contact with a lot of people, learning a lot, getting ideas and inspiration.
I was also initially concerned about the cost, but I soon realized that this should not be a concern for anybody. If you consider the cost of a three day seminar in my line of work (I work in IT), charges of £400 PER DAY !!! are on the cheap side of things. My wife keeps 2 horses, and with all the insurance, vet charges, feed, and what not, my hobby is actually comparatively cheap. Her horse trainer told us the other day that he goes shooting every now and then and pays up to £1000 for a day of shooting game birds. So for all those who bemoan the cost, please put this into some perspective.
OK, I understand that for a production turner the seminar may hold little interest. After all, they have got all the experience anyway, and many of them don't do a lot of artistic/crafty work. But even then, the exposure to so many other good turners and the opportunity to have them all at the same place at the same time should be worth something!
I hear all around that wood turning is booming in the UK, but at the same time we (as a community) failed to get more than 200 delegates to the seminar. This makes no sense to me at all. I think there needs to be a serious re-think about the marketing for this event.
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Can I just say that in my very humble opinion the seminar is pitched at the right level,so whether you are a professional turner or a complete novice there is something there for you. I am an RPT and this time I attended I was spoilt for choice of who to go and see. For the novice turner seeing any one of the demonstrators would have been of benefit to you.
To put the price in perspective on Wednesday I will be attending a training course and the cost of this will be £250 for one day plus fuel and food. So I am looking at spending probably £300 which when you compare that to the seminar it just shows that the seminar is value for money. Put £10 away each month starting now and by the time the next one comes around you will have almost enough to pay for it. 3 pints of beer a week, 2 packets of fags or a gallon of petrol that is all you have to save each week.
ChrisF the gallery is not judged, it is just to show what people are making at the time, and there are pieces there made by complete novices.
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Well said Fuzzy I couldn't have said it better. ;)
Regards John
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Just to put my comments in perspective, I haven't attended so I clearly can't comment on what the event is actually like or how good it actually is for inexperienced turners. I'm quite happy to take your word for it that it is pitched correctly and that there is something for everyone.
My point is that this is not made clear in any of the promotion (at least not that I saw, though I saw precious little). Newcomers are, I would imagine, a very large market. Those that have been before (and I wouldn't mind betting a very high proportion of attendees had been before) know what to expect. Those that haven't need to be told and in particular that means people new to turning. It is less about what is actually available and more about what the perception is. If you make it clear that there is something for even the most new turners then you will be much more likely to get them interested. The fact that there were so few attendees suggests that the message was not clear enough (it wasn't clear to me and it wasn't clear to Fuzzy without speaking to someone else about it and you can't depend on everyone doing that).
I'm aware the gallery isn't judged, but I seem to recall a poster on here expressing doubts about taking work along to exhibit alongside the more well known and established turners. If someone on here is unsure then how are others without this support going to feel? Again, it's not about the fact that they are not being judged, it's about making them feel comfortable enough to bring work along. An area in the gallery dedicated to new turners might help with giving them that comfort and allay their fears (putting your work out there for scrutiny alongside some top notch work from internationally renowned turners can be a very scary proposition!). Once you've got someone along for the first time they are far more likely to return.
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Although the team that put the seminar together was an experienced team it must be remembered that they do not organise seminars for a living and I do wonder if amongst our membership there are people in a better placed position that can offer some aid. I don't know what could be offered but for instance if there is someone who works in publicity they might have contacts or the knowledge to enable that to be carried out at reasonable cost. There coud be ideal venues just waiting to be approached and the team need to be told about them. There could be someone that lives near one of the airports and they could offer to pick up some of the demonstrators from overseas. There are always things that people can do but you should not wait to be asked you should be volunteering your services, our association does an awful lot for its members, more than other organisations do for theirs, but there is a limit to what they can do. Remember no-one draws any pay in the AWGB, the time given is just that ,given. It is given by those that recognise the importance of what the association is trying to achieive, where else will you see young people being taught an art or craft by an expert totally free of charge? Where else will you go to find training in a woodturning discipline and get shown by the experts in their field at hardly any cost at all? Where will you go to witness the sale of woodturning in large quantities with all the proceeds being donated to your organisation? On making all of these points I have used the words you and yours because the AWGB is your Association and you only get out what you or other people put in.
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As far as pitching parts of the seminar at the beginner goes..... I was there and I am a beginner. I picked people to watch partly on the basis of seeing something to inspire future growth ( lots of choice there ) and partly to learn something useful now, at the beginner stage. Ashley Harwood in particular was ideal for that with bits on finial turning, using the push cut, and stuff like that.
It is funny though, the way people learn. Two things stick in my mind and neither of them gad much to do with the seminars themselves. One was a throwaway comment by Mark Hancock ( I think ) about using a cabinet scraper on turnings to get a fine finish - never occurred to me. The other was seeing a pierced wine glass on one of the trade stands. Unlike the gallery I could actually pick this up and look closely at it ( I need to look CLOSE ) This was a gauge for the quality I need to be aiming for and it was an eye opener.
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Actually, thinking about it, there is another point I want to make here and it is about the commeraderie if woodturners.
My eyesight is pretty naff. I don't fall over the furniture but I am registered blind and use a white stick to walk around places I am not familiar with. ( having walked off the top of staircases more than once :) ) I left there feeling quite humbled. No fussing about but people were quietly making sure I found the lectures I wanted, found my way about the site on the odd occasion I wasn't given a lift, and even telling me what was in the dishes at the canteen.
Much appreciated.
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I doubt the taxman would see it that way going of for a weekend jolly and expecting the taxpayer to subsidise it.
Not at all, others here have done exactly that (see reply #12). Attending training courses and professional seminars are totally legitimate business expenses, ask your accountant or phone the tax office for confirmation.
I don't need to you seem to have all the answers
Not quite sure what that's meant to mean, but if someone pointed out to me a way of saving a few hundred quid on tax legitimately I'd thank them.
Maybe this shows another possibility for future events;
Specific session(s) for professionals or intending professionals on running a successful small business.
How to source materials effectively, efficiency in production, marketing, promotion, finding new markets, legal responsibilities, the basics of accountancy etc..
Whilst that sort of session was running for professionals and aspirationals, it would be a great time to run other sessions aimed at those newer to the craft.
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It works for me. ;D ;D
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I have just analysed this thread.
There have been over 500 views and this is the 49th post. 17 individuals in total have posted with contributions ranging from 1 to 9 per individual.
The general consensus seems to be we need to market it more - something with which I totally agree. Someone suggested that maybe there is a someone out there who organises events for a living. My wife worked in event management for many years and ran her own events company for some time. I was involved in this to some extent particularly in the logistics side of thing - bookings, etc so I do have a good appreciation of what is involved. Marketing is the key to bums on seats. As a general rule it was expected that a mailshot to a targeted database would result in a 10% take up.
We have a membership of 3500, and the seminar was promoted extensively in evolutions and yet we only managed just over 5% take up which is half of what we would expect in a professional event management capacity. The information in Woodturning generated about 6 (I'm guessing at this as we did have some non members book after it was published in WT).
So whilst I agree that marketing is important there also has to be a demand and this is where we are coming unstuck, in my view.
The membership of the AWGB is predominantly retired. I have talked to a number of people in different clubs over the past few weeks. The average age in several clubs is over 70, many club members don't turn at all they come for the chat. most probably turn something once a month, if that. I turn something every couple of months for example as I spend a lot of time on the road and I have a lot of other commitments.
The stats on this thread give us an indication of the problem. 500 views, 17 posters which is 3%. Or to put it another way 97% of those viewing aren't interested enough to express an opinion. Fair enough but on that basis to get 300 people at an event we would have to target between 5 and 10000 people. Hmmm!!
But we have a number of ideas - we shall seek sponsorship; we have approached nine different venue providers for information and a quotation and I expect these back by the end of November; we shall consider a new look and feel; we shall try to provide a varied programme to try to meet all tastes and interests.
Thanks for your input so far. Keep those ideas coming.
Cheers Dave
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What you are pointing out Dave is perhaps part of the ongoing problem for wood turning. Whilst no doubt there are turners who have little or nothing to do with the AWGB my experience doing shows around the country is that a huge number of people in the general public have no experience or knowledge of the art / crasft. It is no longer taught in schools (apart from perhaps a few) and the only time I have seen it in the 'craft show' on TV is for pole lathe turning. I know that the AWGB is involved in trying to promote it through various ways and perhaps those of us who turn professionally need to look to doing it ourselves. When I was manning the exhibition in Trowbridge recently I had a lot of people saying that they were totally unaware of the vast diversity and artistic element in turning. Perhaps I am wrong but I suspect that the general idea is that turning is all about bowls, stair spindles and chair legs. here and on other similar forums we are preaching to the converted perhaps the need is not just for promoting to other turners but also to the public in general. There is interest in crafts thanks to the promotion of certain people in the media but we do need to get our own craft out there as well.
pete
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Perhaps I am wrong but I suspect that the general idea is that turning is all about bowls, stair spindles and chair legs.
I think you're bang on.
I help run a large and diverse group of artists which includes turners, sculptors, blacksmiths, silversmiths, potters as well as many different varieties of fine artists including for example a wet felt artist. We find that one of the biggest challenges is educating the public (the art & craft buyers of the future) on the complexities and skills of the various disciplines. For this reason we run free talks and workshops at our largest annual event where our members spend an hour talking about or demonstrating what goes into the making of their work. It makes a huge difference.... pretty much everyone who does a talk sees a boost in sales over the weekend as people start to better understand and appreciate the work.
Before I got actively involved in turning I had no idea of the diversity or the potential complexity. I also very much underestimated the skill involved in even the simplest bowl. Now I know more I appreciate good turning all the more and as a result am far more likely to buy a piece.
How this really relates to the original question(s) in this thread I'm not sure, but if the ultimate aim is to get more people really interested in woodturning then perhaps the seminar could do with being a little more outward looking to see if there is a way of opening it up to those not yet actively involved or even just to the general public to help 'educate' them towards a better appreciation of the craft and therefore a greater likelihood of them buying work in the future.
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Interesting replies Pete and Chris but I very much doubt the general public who are not turners are going to come to the seminar. The aims of the Seminar is to provide inspiration and demonstrate turning at its best by some of the world's best turners. It isn't about promoting turning to the public at large, any more than any other specialist event such as photography, golf etc. You wouldn't go if it wasn't your thing.
Promotion of turning to the public is one of our aims but it isn't something we would naturally include in the Seminar, but maybe that should change?
The Instant Gallery is open to the general public and it's free and we did get some people come along just for that and one lad stayed on in the afternoon and paid to attend two sessions and then bought a set of Sorby turning tools. He was from New Zealand and over here visiting family and they all came along to look at the Gallery.
Chris you wrote "perhaps the seminar could do with being a little more outward looking". Sounds like a good idea but what do you have in mind?
I am really looking for concrete suggestions about how we can achieve these aims.
I look forward to hearing your ideas
Cheers Dave
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Dave, some of the conclusions you are drawing from this thread are a little questionable. 500 views and only 17 posters..... you have to ask how many times each poster revisited the thread to read follow ups, I have visited it many rimes both before and after I joined in.
If you go through this forum and look at the posts I suspect you will find 17 different people joining in is rather special, I doubt that there are that many regular posters on here.
One of the things that interested me was the makeup of those who attended. I think you may have answered this now, do I understand correctly that out of 200 attendees only about 6 were non members ? If so then I think therein lies the problem.
The number of keen(ish) turners in this country could probably be better assessed by the numbers going to Axminster shops ( and their demos ? ) than by those belonging to clubs or the AWGB. Turning is a solitary pastime and possibly attracts individualists as much as it does the clubby types.
I think the big question has to be 'How do you get at these turners and how do you convince them that the weekend is actually good value'. Once you can get them there they may well join the AWGB as well.
I was dubious about the seminar, right up until I got there but in fact it had quite a profound affect on me and I enjoyed it enormously but the decision to go could VERY easily have gone the other way. There is a definite air of the seminar being for the elite among turners and beginners like me would be laughed at. I enjoyed the mix of 'lectures; but perhaps one way around this would be to make it VERY obvious that beginners were welcome as well. Maybe by running a few actual hands on workshops ( Cindy Drozda seems to do a lot of this ) where there is a talk about something specific followed by a workshop where people can give it a supervised try.
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Perhaps I was a bit obscure, what I was referring to was yoiur comment
"The membership of the AWGB is predominantly retired. I have talked to a number of people in different clubs over the past few weeks. The average age in several clubs is over 70, many club members don't turn at all they come for the chat. most probably turn something once a month, if that. I turn something every couple of months for example as I spend a lot of time on the road and I have a lot of other commitments."
As you say, the majority of turners are of the older generation and maybe the attendance at the seminar would improve if the younger members of the public were reached and educated. I know that it is one of the aims of the AWGB and applaud that but if the seminars to grow in any way surely we need to reach out to those that, as yet, are not aware of the craft? One depends on the other or am I being naive? How many of us who either turn regularly or do it professionally would be willing to get involved with say open days teching and showing the public what can be done, hands on sessions etc? I would if I knew where and how. I learned to turn at school and as that is no longer available for many how can we reach the youngsters of today? if the seminar is to prosper then as I see it we need to not so much try and get the non turning public in as get them interested and involved themselves so that they would want to. As I said initially, perhaps one depends on the other?
pete
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I think the big question has to be 'How do you get at these turners and how do you convince them that the weekend is actually good value'.
Couldn't agree more Graham. We have the workshop idea in the suggestion list, possibly as an optional extra.
As for getting at this unspecified number of solitary turners apart from advertising in WT and other wood related magazines I don't know. And of course advertising costs money which all adds to the cost of the event. Hoping for favours like we did last time from GMC worked eventually but we lost out to other items due to page count on a couple of occasions before it actually got published in full. There is no doubt in my mind that if you want to guarantee space it must be paid for.
Whether my numbers analysis on the thread is valid or not the fact still remains that we managed to excite only 5% of the membership who all know we run a Seminar assuming they read Revolutions. And then there are all the non members in Associated Clubs who also have access to Revolutions that may have seen the information as well that didn't think it was worth attending.
Pete
I can see where you're coming from and I think I may have misunderstood your earlier post but getting non turners involved is a different topic altogether. There are 15 Trustees and three volunteers who run the AWGB. We spend many hours each week keeping it going. The AWGB consists of two limited companies - the Charity and the Trading Company. We are running two businesses - all in our spare time. As John (BHT) says we need help if we are to bring turning to a wider public. We have funds available - not a huge amount but it is there. If anyone wants to put together a worked up idea to the trustees to run an event, or series of events to promote turning we'd be only too pleased to look at it. You're not alone in not knowing where and how. We'd need to know who will run it, costs, venues, information about how safety would be addressed, competencies of the instructors etc, etc.
We run a number of Youth Training events each year and all attendees are provided with membership of the AWGB free of charge. We must teach around 50 to 60 young people each year. How many come to the seminar - two or three at best.
It all sounds easy when people see our work most ooh and aahh and are usually impressed and fascinated but then they would do that over ceramics or paintings - it doesn't make then necessarily want to take up pottery or watercolours.
Realistically, I don't actually believe there is a huge demand to get involved with what we do. I have 5 children, a couple like the things we make, the others aren't that interested. They have their own interests and passions, plus four of them are busy with kids and work. I don't think I'm alone in that regard. It's one thing to have a go at a taster session and people will queue all day. It's quite another to get them to take up the craft. The investment is not high - say less than £1,000 which compares favourably with other pastimes such as golf or playing an instrument. But it does need a shed and when I look around on my travels around the UK I see more houses where a shed is not an option than I do where it is.
Keep those ideas coming!
Cheers Dave
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As you have said, most club members are over 70 ( we have a fair proportion of younger ones at Didcot ) I suspect that, like me, many took it up when they retired. That being the case, that is your target audience. It is tempting to ask how retired people can be expected to justify £400+ just for one weekend ( or even more how a younger married man can ) but I won't, don't want to put the idea of scrapping it in your mind :)
Has anyone spoken to the AAW organisers ? I know they have a larger public to call on but are they having problems ?
On the other hand.... is there really that much of a problem ? You are only looking for 50 or so more people, doesn't seem such a lot. Perhaps a more concerted attack on the clubs. Individual letters handed out to each member extolling the virtues of the seminar rather than just 'hoping' that they are actually getting hold of the magazine. Maybe talking to all the regular demonstrators and getting them to push the idea at the clubs as well.
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Another thought.
Do you have the pics etc to produce a video / slide show about the last seminar that could be sent to clubs ( maybe youtube as well ) to show to members on the big screens most have access to ?
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Graham says: Has anyone spoken to the AAW organisers ? I know they have a larger public to call on but are they having problems ?
I was at the AAW Symposium in Pittsburgh earlier this year. We had around 1500 attendees out of a membership of around 15,000.
The show has a mixture of turning demos, panels, and specialist group meetings plus of course the usual Instant Gallery (incredible as always!). The Trade Show is always well subscribed with a good mix of traders.
The AAW rotate the venue to try and attract attendees from all parts of the USA. The next 2 events are in Atlanta and then Kansas City. Perhaps this might be something the AWGB should consider??
In addition, there are numerous local gatherings around the USA so the AAW have to fight for every dollar against SWAT, Utah and other local events. The AWGB doesn't have to cope with this situation luckily.
On the topic of attracting younger members, we need to raise the profile on Facebook, Twitter and other social media. Most clubs seem to like to exist under the radar and wonder why they don't get new members of any age! One guest at our club a couple of nights ago, explained to me that it was only through browsing the local history of our area that he was aware we existed!!
The AWGB seminar does represent good value for money but perhaps the format needs to be revised to breathe new life into the event.
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David - Can I ask what the AAW event costs ?
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David (Atkinson)
The response that you got form your mail shot to members was very good I have quite a large database for my main company and we think that we are doing well if we get a 3% open rate. As the woodturners average age is quite high I think that many would not even read the email, do you use something like Mailchimp where you can monitor the number of emails sent, the number that get open and then the number of people that click through to the booking page.
I've been asking a few questions and it seems that there are many turners who do not go to a club, do not know about the AWGB and would have no idea there was a woodturning seminar.
These are the woodturners that need to be targeted.
In the USA they seem to have drop-in centres where people turn up and use the equipment provided and do some woodturning under some sort of supervision, could the AWGB try something like this to promote woodturning?
All the best
Ed
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David - Can I ask what the AAW event costs ?
Pittsburgh costs were:
$350 for symposium plus $59 for banquet ticket.
Hotel was around $120 per day plus meals.
Flights on top of all this.
Symposium ran from registration 3pm Thursday to mid-afternoon on Sunday.
It was good to see some more Brits there this year!!! Usually, it's only the UK demonstrators you meet -Phil, Nick, Richard etc.
The AAW experience is more expensive than the UK but against that you have a wider programme to enjoy. There's more info at www.woodturner.org
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David - Can I ask what the AAW event costs ?
Pittsburgh costs were:
$350 for symposium plus $59 for banquet ticket.
Hotel was around $120 per day plus meals.
Flights on top of all this.
Symposium ran from registration 3pm Thursday to mid-afternoon on Sunday.
It was good to see some more Brits there this year!!! Usually, it's only the UK demonstrators you meet -Phil, Nick, Richard etc.
The AAW experience is more expensive than the UK but against that you have a wider programme to enjoy. There's more info at www.woodturner.org
Ok, so lets get some opinions.
An extra day sounds good to me, we have already agreed most of us are retired so why not ?
Symposium ? Don't generally like Americanisms but it does sound more interesting than a Seminar :)
Meals not included - That was a waste of money ( at the seminar ) to a certain extent. I have never eaten 3 cooked meals a day in my life.
More interesting stuff in the evenings would be good.
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This could get interesting.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebp9vtklTCU
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The fact that they seem to think it is the first UK symposium seems a bit odd in the light of this thread?
pete
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Certainly seems odd. It would suggest that 2 'well known' turners don't know about the AWGB either. Should they succeed I feel it is likely to do the AWGB more good than harm.
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This could get interesting.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebp9vtklTCU
Just watched this and found it totally bizarre. To not know there have been British and Irish Seminars for god knows how many years is unbelievable. Are either of these two members of any clubs or do they just do their own thing via the internet?
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I responded to them and the answer I get was that they knew about the AWGB ones but wanted something different.
Pete
" Hi Pete. Thanks for your comment. Yes, I've heard of the Seminars from the AWGB and saw they were on in August. We're approaching our symposium from a different angle to the seminars of the AWGB. We're putting our emphasis on bringing UK turners and (hopefully) as many UK and Ireland suppliers together in one place showing just how large the turning community is here and giving more exposure to the lesser known suppliers as well as (again, hopefully), the bigger boys in the industry. Come an join us on the Facebook group to keep up to date with what's going on as well as on our YouTube channels. All the best, Martin"
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.... Should they succeed I feel it is likely to do the AWGB more good than harm.
Graham
I'm afraid I would disagree with this. I would have thought there is strength in numbers rather than having another group trying to do what the AWGB have been trying to do for over 26 years and organised by turners who appear to have little knowledge of what has happened during that time.
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I responded to them and the answer I get was that they knew about the AWGB ones but wanted something different.
Pete
" Hi Pete. Thanks for your comment. Yes, I've heard of the Seminars from the AWGB and saw they were on in August. We're approaching our symposium from a different angle to the seminars of the AWGB. We're putting our emphasis on bringing UK turners and (hopefully) as many UK and Ireland suppliers together in one place showing just how large the turning community is here and giving more exposure to the lesser known suppliers as well as (again, hopefully), the bigger boys in the industry. Come an join us on the Facebook group to keep up to date with what's going on as well as on our YouTube channels. All the best, Martin"
Isn't that what the AWGB has been doing??????????/
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I thought so but not going to get into an argument.
Pete
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.... Should they succeed I feel it is likely to do the AWGB more good than harm.
Graham
I'm afraid I would disagree with this. I would have thought there is strength in numbers rather than having another group trying to do what the AWGB have been trying to do for over 26 years and organised by turners who appear to have little knowledge of what has happened during that time.
I think ( who knows ? ) that they are only interested in creating another symposium/seminar rather than an organisation. Their youtube videos are watched by a huge number of 'beginners' and this event would / should provide a happy hunting ground for the AWGB both for new members and for the next seminar which could be regarded as 'the next step'
I think we should applaud it.
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Morning all
Couple of things (or maybe four!)
Firstly comparison with what they do in the AAW isn't really appropriate. Whilst we can pinch a few ideas here's a quote from their page about the 2015 Pittsburgh event:
We are especially grateful to the following 300+ VOLUNTEERS whose contributions were instrumental in making the event successful...
http://www.woodturner.org/?page=2015Pittsburgh
There are 15 of us trying to make the seminar happen - we haven't had 300 people at a seminar ever, never mind volunteers!
Second an extra day would cost another £150 and given people are shy of spending £400 - £450 I very much doubt they would spend £550 - £600 and the additional effort of organising it with the team we have would not be feasible.
Moving around the UK is something we are considering but at the moment we're focussed on the Midlands as most of our Branches are south of the M62.
As for the guys on YouTube I wish them well. But where have they been all these years? Many clubs have open days where they get support from the trade. It isn't a new idea and from a personal perspective I agree with Mark. I wonder if they are aware that Axminster organised a weekend turning event? I think they ran two before deciding they couldn't make it pay. And that's with their database to go at. And surely they know the Irish Woodturners (IWG) hold annual events? How many suppliers do they think there are? Graham, could you keep an eye on this and keep us posted on their progress?
And another one for you Graham you mention that you have a far proportion of younger members at Didcot. Can you ask them why they didn't come to the seminar? Perhaps you could ask your other club members why they didn't go and let us know?
Cheers Dave
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David (Atkinson)
I've been asking a few questions and it seems that there are many turners who do not go to a club, do not know about the AWGB and would have no idea there was a woodturning seminar.
These are the woodturners that need to be targeted.
Ed
I agree - how do you think we can get at these people?
Cheers Dave
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I agree - how do you think we can get at these people?
Cheers Dave
Any one of us who has an outlet which is visited by the general public, should make info available. My gallery/shop has a window full of turned items, so it automatically attracts anyone interested in turning (or even just in wood)....it's amazing how many of these people say that they had no idea about the AWGB or about local clubs, so we hand out leaflets for our nearest club. As a club (Mid Wales Woodturners) we also ask stockists and dealers of turning supplies, in our area, to keep our leaflets on their counter.
However....I guess that's just the tip of the ice-berg!
Les
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In terms of local clubs, and attracting members, it surprises me that there is not more use made of the big supermarkets. In my area ( and I assume all over the UK) both Sainsburys and Tesco have huge community noticeboards purpose made for local clubs to advertise on.
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I for one inform anyone coming into Olivers Woodturning about the local clubs and the AWGB but the number of people that visit me at the moment is few.
David I'm happy to promote the AWGB at the base of my add that I run in Woodturning every month just get some one to send me some details that you would like to see and I can start it on the next advert run.
Ed
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This year our Club Burcot Woodturners have taken Woodturning to the General public by doing some outside events promoting Woodturning I was
amazed at the response we received not only did we take small lathes we had a Pole lathe that was made by a couple of our members this was a
huge success as a Club we have attracted a number of new members and also guided some to other Clubs we would not have been able to do this a
without a grant from the AWGB for some extra equipment we also never missed an opportunity to pass on some AWGB Flyers (which by the way
Dave we have run out of these) where can I get some more? the type of events we attended were The Canal event at Droitwitch Worcestershire,
the Scarecrow event at Belbroughton Worcestershire (22,000 visitors over the 2 days) and the Stourbridge Canal Boat & Steam Festival And yes
some people never knew about Woodturning may be this is a way to attract more people to Woodturning and not keep preaching to the converted.
I do hope I have not taken this thread off the original subject if so I apologise but I do believe we need to promote our Craft/Art to the General
public.
Regards John
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2 hours or so ago I walked in the door returning home after a trip to Scotland to run a demonstrator training course.( I'm on here now how's that for committment? ;D ;D ;D) I have just read the new posts on this thread, just a thought how about running some courses during the seminar? With a little bit of tweaking the demonstrator training course could be run over 2 half days so candidates can see other things during their time there aswell as doing the course. The tutor's assessment could take place at the seminar, make that the only time to be assessed and numbers attending will rise.
I think logistically a hands on event would be difficult to organise due to numbers of tools and machines needed but a try before you buy side event could be successful. I had a quick "go" with Simon Hope's hollowing rig and even though he was doing a good job telling us about it nothing beats putting your own hands on the tool or jig to get the "feel" of it. I also agree with Graham's comments about the catering, good though it was, I do not normally have 3 large meals a day so perhaps a cafe/restaurant type caterer where you pay as you eat might be an option. I would still like the banquet to stay.
So to sum up, a few different cafes or restaurants on site, basic cheap and clean bedrooms and several rooms to demonstrate or teach in with a large foyer for traders.................looks like the next seminar needs to be held in Trowbridge then!!
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So you are offering your house ? :)
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Ah..um..actually no Graham. ::) ::) ::) I was thinking more of the local civic centre, but in the event that only 3 of us attend. the first option may be on the cards ;D ;D ;D ;D
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John I've sorted the leaflets.
Ed thanks for your kind offer about advertising. I've emailed the Trustees with a suggested wording. I'll get back to you soon.
BHT, John I'm not sure about demonstrator training and assessments at the Seminar. They are a member benefit and I can't see people paying to attend for an assessment, or alternatively they would want a reduction on the Seminar cost if they couldn't see everything. And the fixed cost remains the same. Not only that, most of the assessment team/instructors are also involved in organising the Seminar and as you know we don't get time to watch the demonstrations never mind do assessments and the like.
Cheers Dave
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I am thinking we need to do something to get the AWGB Facebook page a bit more 'Out There' It should have way more friends ( ok, likes ) than it has, it is free publicity.
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I am thinking we need to do something to get the AWGB Facebook page a bit more 'Out There' It should have way more friends ( ok, likes ) than it has, it is free publicity.
Looking at it the last posting was in August after the seminar. Again I suspect that it is a case of who is going to do it? All of us who are members could / should be inputting into it and many of us are on Facebook so what can we do? I am as guilty as anyone. Those of us who teach, do demos etc could use it as could clubs to promote their meetings and demonstrations. Again I feel that as long as we are just preaching to the converted the seminar is not going to grow as we would all like. The bottom line is we need to reach out to potential turners, members etc. and Facebook is certainly one way of doing it. Would us members be alowed to promote our reaching, demonstrations etc on it? Perhaps put our work on it as we do here,tell people when we are doing shows or what is going on in the world of wood turning? I think with the amount of work involved in running the AWGB and the small number of people who do it the onus is on us ordinairy members to get more involved in the promotion side of things but we need to know how, what can we do.
Pete
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Just put a small test post on the AWGB wall.
We can all probably use it to promote ourselves/events etc.
Perhaps also the AWGB need to be members of the various woodturning groups on Facebook as well.
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I agree with pretty much everything you say Pete but there is no point in just bunging stuff on there if nobody is seeing it. Every time a post is made it will show up to those who have 'liked' the page. Only the admins of the page have the ability to get it 'liked' ( You know the messages, so and so invites you to like his page ) We need it liked by all our turner friends which means it needs more 'Admins'
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If you share a post everyone who you are friends with will see it. I have a personal page and a professional page so could share under both banners and it would reach everyone that sees my pages. That would be other turners (often not AWGB members) and non turners. It would at least broadcast the existence of the organisation and what they do. For example the travelling exhibition, tutoring opportunities that they run etc. I know that this is perhaps not strictly going to promote the seminar but how many of us shared the posts about that? One thing I have learned or rather am learning is that publicity and promotion is the biggest part of selling anything. As I said before I think it is down to us ordinairy members to get our act together and not just depend on the ones who at present do all the work. It is our organisation after all and most of us would love to see our craft getting more publicity. When you think of the huge variety of work that is done by our members it crosses most boundaries.
Pete
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Ah, OK ( dont know much about Facebook :) ) I have just noticed that there is a button there that will ask all your friends to like the page as well.
So, are the powers that be happy for us to use the page as well ?
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Like a few of you I have a great many FB friends and would be happy to promote the AWGB via my FB pages
Ed
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Great to see you all getting involved like this - thank you. I can't see any reason why you can't post your demos etc on the AWGB FB page.
And share any posts you like. DB is right we should be part of other groups.
I only do FB in fits and starts. Too much to do and so little time! Not been in my shed to turn anything for a few weeks now. I promise I will be in there this week!!
Cheers Dave
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Likes on the Facebook page up by more than 50 already :)
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I've just finished inviting about 1000 people to like the AWGB page and had 163 people like the page so far,
Now someone in the AWGB needs to start adding some new content to the page, Pictures of Trowbridge or some thing like that a link to Lets Teach Turning
Ed
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Quick up date with my inviting my facebook friends to like the AWGB page.
The count of people that have now like the page from this group of people is up to 259. If everyone that uses facebook were to do the same the page could be opened to a great many more people.
But remember we do need to add content to keep the page fresh.
All the best
Ed
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I have just liked and shared it on my wood facebook page
I notice that the AWGB page hasn't been updated since 13th of August, I have found that I have to post every couple of days to keep and build a page on facebook but even then its a bit of a lottery with some posts going unnoticed and then all of a sudden some being liked and shared allot.
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Thats a great result Ed. I have done my British and close European friends who didn't already like the page which added another 23 so far but chicken feed compared to yours.
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Just another thought. Instead of supplying note books and pens why not just have some made with the Association logo on and let those that want them buy them? A cheap momento of the seminar or a necessary iten that you gorgot to bring with you but some sales will take place and will help to cover some costs.
Change the mode of dress for the banquet and watch the sales of AWGB ties improve. I think it all come down to marketing.
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Some ideas in previous posts about merchandising. I'd suggest sticking to the usual t-shirts, smocks and caps. You can get anything with your logo on it but stick to easy sale items.
PS have got a reply from AWGB to my posting on their wall.
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Just seen the AWGB page has been updated - looks better already! Now to sort out YouTube??????
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Hello everyone
I know we have YouTube but it is difficult to see two things:
1 Who has the time to take video, edit and publish
2 What would the content look like
Like I said before there are only a few if us running the whole shooting match (in our spare time). We have to prioritise our efforts. Right now we're focussing on the best way to take the Seminar forward and the Assessment process for the Approved Tutor Scheme. Plus the normal day to day activities.
I think YouTube is something we don't have time to do.
As for Facebook - it's a double edged sword. If we don't keep adding posts it falls by the wayside. On the other hand most of what we do is boring admin stuff. But it's easier to update FB than anything else, so we'll try.
Cheers Dave
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Perhaps if we got more newsworthy items from members / clubs we could feed it onto the website and facebook?
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if its difficult to find content for the Facebook page how about letting members post their work on there or picking an item of work from the forum each week to post on there.
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What George Watkins says.
Plus, as Pete suggested, The 'names' could put their next club booking on it.
Both items would be a weekly new item worthy of sharing. That could be a thousand plus views ( and growing rapidly now ) every week keeping the AWGB in everyones mind.
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I am very aware that there are just a few volounteers doing the most of the work so with regards to Facebook is it not possible to have one of us members keep an eye on it, make sure only relevant and 'decent' stuff goes on it? What George says is very true, it needs regular input so the idea of having AWGB members sharing their teaching experience, some of their work, demonstrations they are having or giving would be a big help. I don't think any of us expect all this to be done or even co-ordinated by you David, or Andy or any of the other volunteers already involved who already do enough if not too much.
Pete
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I agree with Pete and that person could do an editors choice each week from the forum gallery ( which might also encourage others to join the forum as well.
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Facebook update just checked and have driven 317 new likes to my sharing the AWGB page.
It's possible to let let others that the committee trust to look after the facebook page to help out the committee, the same with You Tube.
The more content that added the more posts will get shared opening a wider audience.
Ed
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Thanks for the offer guys - leave it with me
Cheers Dave
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I, for one, would be happy to offer time to look after the facebook page. I feel that we would need to agree a set of guidelines for what we want and what we tolerate on the page, so that whoever might take control of it is working democratically, rather than autonomously, but once those guidelines are drawn up, it shouldn't be too onerous a task to adopt.
Les
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I feel that we would need to agree a set of guidelines for what we want and what we tolerate on the page
Les
I've circulated the Trustees about the general idea and we feel the same. we're giving some thought to the guidelines. Watch this space! It would be useful if those who would like o be involved emailed at vicechair@awgb.co.uk so we can communicate directly as this idea takes shape.
Cheers Dave
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Hi Everyone,
I have come across this today I think this is what was being discussed earlier in this thread.
www.ukiws.co.uk Regards John
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I have come across this today I think this is what was being discussed earlier in this thread.
www.ukiws.co.uk
Remarkable http://www.ukiws.co.uk/about/ so the most experienced turner involved has been turning for less than four years and the other do have been turning for 12 months and 18 months and they want to run the "greatest woodturning weekend the UK has ever seen" ???
I wonder how many they've seen themselves to judge it by ?
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Umm.. actually I am booked to demonstrate.
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.. I am booked to demonstrate.
If they pay you, why not.
As an outsider to all this, I'm a bit cynical.
The AWGB have a track record of running big events, I assume the AWGB organisers have some confidence of who they can rely on to assist on the day, but still managed to loose a six figure sum this year.
What chance do three blokes with no apparent experience of running a major event have of delivering what they're hoping for ?
They would have to be very, very convincing to get any major sponsors to underwrite the enterprise.
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Umm.. actually I am booked to demonstrate.
John there's no mention of you on their web site but hope it works out.
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Mark only arranged a short time ago, thanks for your good wishes. If it helps promote woodturning in the UK, no matter who is doing the organising, I am interested in giving what help I can.
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Whilst I am all for promoting wood turning I am afraid that I do have reservations. Looking at their web site the three people involved have a total turning experience of less than 5 years and I can find little example of their work online apart from you tube videos. They have about 6 months to arrange this and the only sponsors are a finish that I have never heard of that is made by one of them.There are no clubs affiliated (yet) and one, with the greatest experinece of less than 5 years, is dubbed 'the goblet king' which seems a tad over the top. I wish it well and who knows maybe they will succed. They have there work cut out I think.
Pete
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I don't think you need to be a good woodturner to organise an event.
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I don't think you need to be a good woodturner to organise an event.
That's certainly true, but there are no clues anywhere that suggest these guys have any great skills in event management either.
Maybe with a bit of crowd sourcing they can pull it off, but I remain to be convinced.
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I don't think you need to be a good woodturner to organise an event.
Agreed and maybe I am over cynical but there is just something about the whole thing that doesn't sound right to me. I hope I am wrong and will happily say so if I am.
pete
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the whole thing that doesn't sound right to me.
I very much doubt there's any malintent behind it, just youthful 'can do' enthusiasm that isn't tempered by much practical experience or consideration.
I'd guess they're allowing themselves to be deluded that their You Tube channel is an indication of success. The reality is somewhat different. Most of their videos have less than a 100 'likes' and even fewer comments, and that's from a potentially global audience. Turning that "success" into a real event at a big hotel that will cost a lot of money is a different prospect altogether.
It's a shame that their 'can do' attitude and youthful enthusiasm couldn't be incorporated in the AWGB's system.
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I don't think there is anything dodgy about it either Paul but like you I can't help but feel that the effort would be better used in conjunction with the work of the AWGB.
Pete
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It's a shame that their 'can do' attitude and youthful enthusiasm couldn't be incorporated in the AWGB's system.
Paul I free that is a very unfair comment to make. Since it's inception over 25 years ago the AWGB has done many great things, biannual seminars, teaching DVD, youth training, members workshops etc. whilst being run by dedicated volunteers.
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whilst being run by dedicated volunteers.
Sure, but just look at the demographic of your membership.
Check reply #13 from the OP of this thread "When I look around my club most are hobby turners, the average age is over 70"
Wouldn't some young blood that hasn't retired yet be a bonus for the AWGB ?
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If there is anything wrong with the AWGB it is that too much is left to a few dedicated people who are strugggling to get it more recognised etc. The blame lies not with the AWGB per se but people like me and other 'ordinary' members who should be doing more. I agree with Mark in that what the AWGB has achieved is pretty amazing and if we want to see it growing and spreading the word it is unfair to expect more from the ones doing all the work at the moment. Talking to one of the committee at the seminar I was amazed that he found time to do his turning and earn a living as he seemed to put so much effort into the work of the AWGB. My excuse is one of ignorance as to what was involved and before anyone criticises it for having an older membership perhaps they need to ask what they can do to improve it.
Pete
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whilst being run by dedicated volunteers.
Sure, but just look at the demographic of your membership.
Check reply #13 from the OP of this thread "When I look around my club most are hobby turners, the average age is over 70"
Wouldn't some young blood that hasn't retired yet be a bonus for the AWGB ?
Having looked at the demographic of those who have expressed an interest in the UKIWS there is not much difference that I can see. Many are hobby turners and retired. The one thing they appear to have in common is that they use U-tube a lot. There also appears to be a certain amount of ignorance about the history of turning and how it has developed over the last 25+ years along with naivety about what's involved in organising a major event. I get the impression many don't attend clubs but may be wrong.
And yes younger blood is needed not just in the AWGB but in the whole of the woodturning community. The AWGB has tried to encourage this with their Youth Training programme and I believe also with scholarships for their Seminar; it was noticeable that there were a few more youngsters there this year. But how you keep that interest going I don't know.
Paul, just out of interest are you a member of the AWGB and/or a turning club?
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I don't subscribe to any other woodturning forums so would be interested to hear any comments about this from other sources. I do however get the impression that the members of this forum are lining up against these guys when in actual fact we as woodturners, regardless of membership of any association,club, guild, register or any type of organisation you can think of should be applauding them and giving them our full support. Remember if it was not for men like them a few years ago with names like Ray Key and Les Grantham the AWGB would not be in existence.
The event they are planning is not in competition with the AWGB and will probably be different from any other show that runs in this country ar the moment. We have all seen the postings where there are people moaning about the lack of shows or this show is closing down or that one is not being run again but when someone has the balls to stand and say I will try to arrange an event the rest of us should stand up and be counted. I organised the Trowbridge Contemporary woodturning exhibition, the first exhibition of that ilk that I have ever organised and there were other people that put in some effort to give me assisstance in its running and I can tell you it was very, very successful. All anything like this needs to be a success is help with organising and people attending. I for one have offered my help in one or two areas and I will be attending it, how many of you are prepared to stand up and be counted?
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There also appears to be a certain amount of ignorance about the history of turning and how it has developed over the last 25+ years
There are two aspects to this;
1. Does recent history of turning matter when running an event ? It may be beneficial to bring a completely clean approach to the running a seminar.
2. Has anything really changed ?
I first got interested in turning back in 1985 and coming back to it last year, not a lot has changed. Self centring chucks are now mainstream, no body bothers with lace bobbin turning any more the small 'project de jour' is now making horrible plastic pens, there's now easy free tutorials on the internet and woodturning clubs have appeared.
I get the impression many don't attend clubs but may be wrong.
Which may be a good thing of course.
Paul, just out of interest are you a member of the AWGB and/or a turning club?
No. My work makes trying to attend any sort regular meeting almost impossible.
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members of this forum are lining up against these guys
I'm not reading it like that.
I just think there is a lot of justifiable cynicism about their ability to deliver what they're proposing.
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OK John, I stand chastised. :-[ You are right with your comment "when someone has the balls to stand and say I will try to arrange an event the rest of us should stand up and be counted" has hit home. As you know I am more than happy to muck in and help where I can so maybe I should take your lead and see what happens.
PaulH Your comment "no body bothers with lace bobbin turning any more the small 'project de jour' is now making horrible plastic pens" is not acurate. I for one make all sorts of crafting tools including lace and tapestry bobbins regularly and have never turned a pen in my life. There are a number of us on here who make all sorts of things that aren't really the type of turning that is put onto a forum, if you want pictures of bobbins, niddy noddys, nostepinnes, courrone sticks, spindles, kumihino discs, crochet hooks, etc i am happy to oblige. Those of us who turn professionally make what ever people want not just the arty work just that it isn't displayed.
Pete
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John H Your comment "no body bothers with lace bobbin turning any more the small 'project de jour' is now making horrible plastic pens" is not acurate. I for one make all sorts of crafting tools including lace and tapestry bobbins regularly and have never turned a pen in my life.
If you're going to talk about accuracy at least get my name right ;-)
What I was referring to is the emphasis on plastic pens in the press and equipment sales.
Just look at the latest edition of Woodturning magazine; 4 pages on making a plastic pen.
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I have been standing up for them all along, and pointing out that this could be a good recruiting source for the AWGB.
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There have been a few comments since my last post so I won't do the quote thing to reply.
First I would like to point out that I would like to see this event succeed as it can only be of benefit to all.
I do frequent a number of forums purely to keep abreast with what is happening within the woodturning world. And without doubt an awful lot has changed. So much so that I often refer to myself as a "traditional" turner because of all the new fangled things that have come along. :)
My comment about ignorance of the past 25+ years was made because I feel it's helpful if you know what's happened, what has been tried and the mistakes made then maybe they won't be repeated - I do realise that the human race isn't known for not repeating the mistakes of the past :). Having spoken to one of the organisers and having looked at the event's web site the list of highlights looks very familiar - Tudor Rose's show, Turn East etc.; reinventing the wheel comes to mind.
To organise the "greatest woodturning weekend the UK has ever seen" I'm afraid will require a lot more than just enthusiasm; just ask anyone involved in the recent Seminar at Loughborough or any other big event for that matter. Why have the big shows gone - NEC, Wembley, Axminster, Midlands Show etc.? These shows covered all areas of woodworking including turning and haven't survived.
As I see it crunch time will come when the ticket price is revealed along with what the format of the show is.
I sincerely wish them the best of luck.
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I see the advertising has changed from Britains FIRST woodturning symposium to Britains BIGGEST woodturning symposium :)
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Hi Mark H,
I find your comments on this thread very much in line with thoughts yes if this event is a success it can only benefit Woodturning.
PaulH,
I can understand your work prevents you from joining a Club but I cannot understand why this prevents you becoming a member of the AWGB
as you seem to be very active on the forum giving your advice I invite you to join the AWGB.
Regards John
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you seem to be very active on the forum
Really ? I've only made 28 posts in nearly four months and half of those have been in this thread. Interesting idea of "very active".
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PaulH ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Oh it seemed more than that sorry but you could still join the AWGB
Regards John
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it seemed more than that sorry
Every post here has a section that tells you who made the post, how many posts the user has made, along with links to their profile and any other information they choose to make available, eg their web site.
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Paul, just out of interest are you a member of the AWGB and/or a turning club?
No. My work makes trying to attend any sort regular meeting almost impossible.
AWGB membership doesn't require attendance of any meetings or membership of a club.
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Paulh
I think what John is saying is that (compared with the other 737 members) 28 posts in 4months is "very active" on this forum and may I also say seemingly very anti AWGB!
Roger Groom
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very anti AWGB!
Not at all. It's all been constructive comments to try to avoid the AWGB losing another "significant amount" in future.
It's the people that haven't bothered to help that should be branded "anti"
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Hi Roger thank you for your support yes I think he is Anti Awgb :)
PaulH if you are so worried about the AWGB loosing money cough up your £18 and join
Regards John
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Firstly hands up, I've never been to a seminar, reasons being time of year (have to take my holidays in school holidays), other commitments, I'm an avid cricket fan and this is Test Match time, and justifying costs (£40 - £80 for a day of international cricket before anybody asks). You may even guess who I am by now, if not here's another clue, I've been involved in running a successful turning club for 14 years.
Long ago, when I first spoke to wood turners, I got the impression that the AWGB and RPT were elitist organisations, rightly or wrongly that's the impression I got. Our club was a member of the now defunct Northern Federation, and believe me the members that I met at their meetings only re-inforced the elitist impression, especially as the AWGB at that time was 'down south'.
Well we only have one pro organisation now, so you have little choice, the AWGB have the monopoly. I am a hobby turner and our club is predominantly hobby turners, we have 45 members and as far as I'm aware only 1 member earns his living working wood. So how do we get rid of the elitist impression?
I have no silver bullet, but maybe, just maybe if the AWGB organised a local event which included a number of clubs that might be a start. You see I think the idea of a grand seminar every 2 years does little to dispel this elitist tag, for the common man, which is how I would describe myself.
Our members ask themselves the question, 'Would our club fail if it were not for the AWGB?' they think the answer is no, we might have to go elsewhere for our insurance but our club would carry on as long as we support it and our committee give us what we want at a reasonable cost. Our club has gone from a 'hand to mouth' existence to being comfortably off as far as finance is concerned but we are more than money, we are a club.
So if the AWGB is serious about changing the format and wants the members opinion then they have to 'get out there' and ask, as our members money was 'lost' in the seminar, I hope that's what the AWGB does.
By the way, I think the number of issues of Revolutions could be cut, why not just send a proportionate number of copies to clubs, I for one don't need my own personal copy.
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The AWGB is not all about cluns. It is an organisation made up of individual members hence every member gets a copy of Revolutions. There are still individual members who are not members of any club so they have to be catered for too. As far as being elitist, that is an impression formed by woodturners about woodturners and no amount of northern based events will change that attitude.
As far as the AWGB getting out there as you say our reps are out there visiting clubs and branches on request and attending such shows that they are able to attend, what more would you have them do?
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The idea that the AWGB is an elitist organisation I find quite bizarre. And how can it be the "one pro organisation" with the majority of members being hobbyists???? I would suggest some do a little more digging and research before making such comments rather than believing everything they have been told as the absolute truth.
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Also found it strange how the AWGB could be called elitist especially as it is open to any turners, no matter how long they have been turning and without any entry criteria. What is elitist about that ? :-\
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There's always three sides to every story (yours. mine, and the plain, cold truth), and people will believe what they want to believe. More often than not their beliefs make them feel comfortable, and the discomfort created by disrupting their beliefs is enough to make them turn away and ignore the plain cold truth. We all do it, all the time (me included).
For whatever reason, it appears that this particular club has turned (or is about to turn) its back, and nothing short of a dedicated, concerted effort will change that.
Having said this, I do think that the idea of regional small scale events is possibly a good one. I do remember that from one of two clubs I am a member of, I was the only person attending the seminar. And I believe the main reason was that the other folks all couldn't afford it (or didn't want to spend that much). A regional event, maybe over one day only, with one or two nationally known turners, no overnight accommodation required, catering reduced to lunch only, could be put on for much less outlay, and could therefore be much more affordable to the average wood turner, many of whom are OAP.
P.S.: I also find the idea of the AWGB being elitist quite bizarre. Wonder where that was born?
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Well thanks for your comments, I am well aware that individual members have to be catered for, that was not the point. The AWGB wanted suggestions as to why not many folk attended the seminar. I have spoken to a few turners over the years and they expressed the feeling of elitism which came from the attitude of some AWGB and RPT members. Its not the fact thats its open to all its the fact that some folk reckon they are better than others. The club isnt turning its back on anything, dismiss my suggegestions if you like, after all you know best.
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Oh my apologies to Mark Hancock for using the preface 'pro ' I''m sorry that seemed to cause offence, I should have said One National Organisation.
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'I am sorry you feel that way about the AWGB, we will take those feelings on board and try to address them'
May I suggest that that should be the proper response to someone offering suggestions as to why the seminar lost money rather than jumping on them for saying something we don't like ? People feel what they feel, it is irrelevant whether there is any foundation or not.
I agree that some regional smaller events would be a good thing but AS WELL AS, not INSTEAD OF the 3 day seminar.
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Just reading some of these comments I have to say that I don't agree with the criticism.
I started woodturning just about 2 years ago I joined the AWGB. I joined a woodturning club that as nothing to do with the AWGB.
But I have found the AWGB more than helpful & friendly, I went along to the seminar with my wife (who is not a woodturner) and we were made to feel most welcome.
Ed
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In my lifetime I have belonged to various organizations and I can honestly say since I took up Woodturning some 20 years ago I have never met such a
great bunch of people who will share their knowledge with any one who asks and most will say come over to my place one day and I will help you
with your problem there seem to be this thing with some people who sit in the back ground and don't get involved think all the rest are elitist I can
assure those who think that couldn't be further from the truth.
Regards John
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Hi turningal
As Vice Chairman I don't have any problem with your comments. I have heard the words such as elitist, only for professionals etc befoe.
I am an individual member and joined the AWGB in 2005 and the committee in 2009.
I am also a member of two former northern federation clubs.
I don't know why the terms of elitism etc grew up although I suspect they have their roots in ancient history, which should now, most definitely, be consigned to history.
Our president and chairman both make their livings from Woodturning and have given of their time, and expertise, and wisdom more times than can be numbered, all freely and willingly.
The rest of the trustees are hobby turners.
The loss on the seminar was due to not enough people attending, and whilst it was regrettable we are taking steps to understand things before we start planning another.
Regional events are a possibility but they tend to be covered by clubs. I (on behalf or the AWGB) took a stand at the Red Rose event in October.
If your club has an event and would like us to attend we will try to make it happen but there are only a few of us and we are spread out throughout the UK so it won't always be possible. Contact your regional rep for an initial discussion.
If the clubs and members went their own way life wouldn't stop. But all the good things which we have achieved - member development workshops, demonstrator training, the Let's teach turning course (which is free to download to anyone in the world who have access to the Internet), the event grant scheme open to branches and clubs, the Roger Stewart fund - open to all, cheaper insurance etc etc would all cease and in my opinion Woodturning would be the poorer for it.
So it seems to me for some reason we (the AWGB) has given the wrong impression. I hope this post helps to counteract this. We are an association of members and it is open to anyone, anywhere.
Please get in touch by email if you have any queries about what we do, and what we are trying to do.
Cheers Dave
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Thanks for not 'machine gunning' me, I am not anti AWGB, and certainly have met some very supportive members of the AWGB, especially during the time of the Northern Federation demise, I praise you for all that you have achieved, I realise that along with all organisations that you struggle to get folk to volunteer and give their time. My post was not a knock or criticism of anybody, although some seem to have taken it that way. I just expressed my opinions and relayed opinions of turners that I have spoken with in the past. I am not able to commit any more time to running my club than I do now, otherwise I might be able to give more time to the AWGB, but I work full time. The comment about 'would our club stop without the AWGB' was just that , a comment, I know all about grants, bursaries and training, and the work of the AWGB. Likewise the comment about 'Revolutions', I merely ask the question does our club or any other club require a copy for each member? It's only a question for consideration.
Thank You.
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Oh my apologies to Mark Hancock for using the preface 'pro ' I''m sorry that seemed to cause offence, I should have said One National Organisation.
No offence was caused at all :). I was trying to express my confusion and puzzlement in written form at your use of 'pro'.
By the way there is another national organisation, the British Woodturners Association http://www.britishwoodturners.co.uk/ (http://www.britishwoodturners.co.uk/) as well as the The Worshipful Company of Turners http://turnersco.com/ (http://turnersco.com/) and the Register of Professional Turners http://registerofprofessionalturners.co.uk/ (http://registerofprofessionalturners.co.uk/)
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Oh my apologies to Mark Hancock for using the preface 'pro ' I''m sorry that seemed to cause offence, I should have said One National Organisation.
No offence was caused at all :). I was trying to express my confusion and puzzlement in written form at your use of 'pro'.
By the way there is another national organisation, the British Woodturners Association http://www.britishwoodturners.co.uk/ (http://www.britishwoodturners.co.uk/) as well as the The Worshipful Company of Turners http://turnersco.com/ (http://turnersco.com/) and the Register of Professional Turners http://registerofprofessionalturners.co.uk/ (http://registerofprofessionalturners.co.uk/)
OK, I give in.
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Oh my apologies to Mark Hancock for using the preface 'pro ' I''m sorry that seemed to cause offence, I should have said One National Organisation.
No offence was caused at all :). I was trying to express my confusion and puzzlement in written form at your use of 'pro'.
By the way there is another national organisation, the British Woodturners Association http://www.britishwoodturners.co.uk/ (http://www.britishwoodturners.co.uk/) as well as the The Worshipful Company of Turners http://turnersco.com/ (http://turnersco.com/) and the Register of Professional Turners http://registerofprofessionalturners.co.uk/ (http://registerofprofessionalturners.co.uk/)
OK, I give in.
Please don't give in. It can only benefit woodturning as a whole if more that get involved, comment and offer suggestions, I was only pointing out that there are other turning organisations out there.
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To be fair to turningal, the RPT really is only for professionals, as is the Worshipful Company of Turners, and the BWA is a club for wood turning companies. The only national body catering for amateurs AND professionals (that I am aware of) is the AWGB. In consequence it is even more important that we (the members) are not seen as arrogant or contemptuous or anything along those lines.
I'd agree with Mark: don't give in and don't give up. My posts on this thread were not aimed at you, they were merely a general observation. If we cannot have a bit of tension in these threads, then nothing positive will come of them. There's nothing wrong with a bit of controversy, as long as we keep it on the civilized side.
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Hi Fuzzyturns, Just want to dispel one thing in your post. The Worshipful Company of Turners is open to all who wish to be part of the Livery. It is one of the great Livery Companies of the City and is ranked no 51 in order of precedence.. Check out: http://turnersco.com/
(http://turnersco.com/)
There's one Freeman I know of who is a professional plus another Liveryman who is not.
David