AWGB Woodturning Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: John on February 21, 2015, 02:21:14 PM

Title: What price safety
Post by: John on February 21, 2015, 02:21:14 PM
Following an earlier thread I saw this, how do they get away with items like this.
Tee lights with no safety cup.
I also saw load of these a Winchester Xmas Fair.
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/70632799/tealight-candle-holder-reclaimed-wood?ref=favs_view_5&atr_uid=19324515
John
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Les Symonds on February 21, 2015, 05:21:30 PM
..... how do they get away with items like this....Tee lights with no safety cup.

John


....by a technical loop-hole, John. Trading standards offices throughout UK stipulate that there should be a non-flammable surface between the candle and the timber. The argument is, that the aluminium pot that the tea-light comes in, is non-flammable. However, we all know that using teal-lights without a proper holder is crazy. There have been too many cases to mention of house-fires caused by this sort of tea-light holder. Over time, the wood becomes extremely dry, even scorched, then one day it suddenly ignites. The least that we, as a responsible group of artisans can do, is to ensure that we all use liners.

Les
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: bodrighywood on February 21, 2015, 06:26:26 PM
I have seen candle sticks charred where the so called fire retardant brass holder was a sleeve only with no bottom and also have had t lights where the aluminium cup has started to melt. A couple of times I have been indiscreet enough to comment to other woodturners at shows selling t light holders and candlesticks with nothing at all about the danger and got a few rather cross responses. Won't stop me though as it is both dangerous and brings the rest of us who do it properly into disrepute.

pete
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Bryan Milham on February 21, 2015, 07:04:52 PM
Frightening to see, but we see it all too often and worse.

I've also seen wooden wall sconces for sale with candles stood on them with no interfacing material, as 'for example' but we all know where examples lead...
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: TWiG on February 21, 2015, 07:16:08 PM
I spoke to someone about this a while back about this situation ( selling antique candle sticks ) and they were assured they are covered by a general caveat of ... NEVER leave a flame unattended !!  I think if anything did happen this is what an insurer will use to negate any claim . and not blame  the seller / manufacturer of any such item  ..  Terry ..
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 21, 2015, 09:27:45 PM
I too have heard what Twig said but don't rely on it. I think all we can do is ensure the stuff we sell is safe and eventually the customers will get the idea and stop buying from unscrupulous sellers.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: seventhdevil on February 21, 2015, 09:41:45 PM
i don't sell (or even make these) tea light candle holders (aside from one pair i was asked to make years ago) but would be happy to sell them sort of as is if i was asked. not wanting to spit in the face of anyone who say otherwise but i fin it hard to believe that the base of a candle flame can set alight the wooden holder.

i will do an experiment and light a few in a holder with no protection and see what happens.

if no one hears from me again you know the result ;D
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 21, 2015, 09:58:42 PM
I use these they are as cheap as chips
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-GLIMMA-Glass-Tea-Light-Holder-Party-Candle-Holders-Wedding-Tealight-/371245845673?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=640376649751&hash=item566ffa0ca9
In case the link does not work  Ebay Key words Ikea glass T light holders

Regards George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Bryan Milham on February 21, 2015, 11:01:00 PM
George I'm 100% with you on the use of them.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: bodrighywood on February 21, 2015, 11:04:59 PM
Me too. Thick glass, safe and cheap.

Pete
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Graham on February 22, 2015, 09:04:38 AM
Seventhdevil.... I agree with you totally. The chance of a tealight setting fire to a piece of solid wood is VERY remote. You may have to experiment with varying conditions of draught and try 10.000 times before you get one to burn so leaving out the glass or metal barrier doesn't really matter. Probably no more than one death a year would result. Statistically insignificant.


( Just playing with you  :) )
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Paul Hannaby on February 22, 2015, 11:24:07 AM
I spoke to a fire safety office a while back. He told me he had attended a number of house fires caused by tea lights being used with only the aluminium cup between the candle and a flammable surface.

Recommended best practice is to use something non-flammable between the tealight and the wooden base so why take a chance when they cost pennies.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: bodrighywood on February 22, 2015, 11:50:40 AM
It isn't just a matter of the wood catching fire. It depends on what the wood is, I have seen oak charred, yew seriously burnt and pine with a good few mill. deep charring. Add to that the fact that there is a good chance that the wood will have been oiled or polished, possibly varnished or lacquered and you have a potentially highly inflammable substance in contact with a hot metal. Not exactly a good or safe combination. It may well be fine some of the time but it only takes one incident to ruin someones life. Not an acceptable risk. Also, if you are selling your work you are morally, if not legally obliged to make sure that any and all risks are eradicated as far as is possible. I am afraid that I see food utensils made from laburnum and yew (but the poison is not usually in the wood!) Goblets finished with all sorts of oil, candles and t light holders with no inserts all for sale at craft fairs and I am sorry but to me that is just as bad as the foreign imports that we all decry. No brainer. If you are selling do it responsibly.

Pete
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: john taylor on February 22, 2015, 01:10:22 PM
This has been one of my hobby horses for years, and got me in trouble a few times at shows.

I have had several chats with trading standard officers about this and it is interesting how different views of the regulations are between different councils.   

At one show the TSOs said there was nothing wrong with selling items as per your picture as they confirm to the rules and safety info.   At another show in a different council area the TSOs made everyone with holders like your picture remove them from sale as they did not conform to regulations.

What was the difference well what makes up the candle according to the council that let them be sold just the wax, but, the other council said that the tin cup was part of the candle therefore you still needed an independent non-inflammable surface between the candle and the holder.   The funny bit about this is that the two shows were half a mile apart but in different council areas.

I have tried them without additional holders and while the wood does get slightly warm there was no danger of fire.   However one of our club members used to be a fireman and he has been to several fires started by candles and at least one of them was started by a holder similar to the picture.

Regardless of if you think it is dangerous or not is it worth risking your families life for the sake less than a quid?

john
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: bodrighywood on February 22, 2015, 03:40:09 PM
The point about the wax is important as well. I don't know much about it but a friend who makes candles has told me that cheaper t lights and candles are made from a wax that burns quickly and hot. Other waxes burn at a lower temperature.

pete
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Mark Sanger on February 22, 2015, 05:03:54 PM
I would always use a second sheath between the T light and wood.

However there is no regulation ( at least when I checked with H&S/product design safety Gov Dept) a few years ago to state that you have to include a fire proof material between the candle and wood.

This is covered my the product safety act with no specifics for candle holders with it being a cover all regulation.

What the regulations say is that if you inform the customer with a sticker ( do not leave candles unattended, do not let burn down to the wood, do not leave in presence of children of pets etc etc etc) then you are covered.

The lady I spoke to went on to say that if you sell a candle holder without a candle then you do not even have to have a sticker.

If you look in many shops particularly the ones that sell ethnic type items, incense, Buddhas etc you will see loads of candle holders that have candles that fit straight in contact with wood, I have inspected them and many don't even have stickers and these are high street outlets.

I always use a metal or glass holder as I prefer not to test the system.   :)
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 22, 2015, 05:44:13 PM
I agree that there is a moral obligation here and like Mark I do not wish to test the system but surely this is part of what being a responsible and professional turner is all about. (I use the word professional as a mark of skill in this context). We have spoken many times about raising standards and this is just a small part of it. By only making items that conform to regulations or in the absence of regulations are made as safe as possible for consumers we are demonstrating a responsibility above those that do otherwise.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 23, 2015, 03:57:20 PM
Spurred to curiosity by this thread, I tried a little experiment. I suspended a very thin, low-quality, tea light case above a tea light with the edge of the case in the hottest part of the flame (the tip, approx 1,000 deg C). The room was free of draughts. 1 hour later there was no sign of any melting, deformation or burning of the aluminium. It was too hot to touch, but as it hadn't melted, no part of it was above 600 deg C. Also, as there was no glow whatsoever, the temperature at the hottest point was less than 525 deg C - the starting temperature of incandescence.

In the real world the flame never touches the cup. The hottest part of the flame is about 1-1.5 cm above the melted wax pool, in free air. You can drip the melted wax onto your finger and although it is a bit painful, it doesn't do any damage. The wax pool does not normally reach the cup, although it might if the flame flickers in a draught, so there is, most of the time, a layer of insulation between the flame and the cup - candle wax. That insulator is itself a heat absorber since its ignition depends on it vapourising, so it absorbs the latent heat of vapourisation from the bottom of the flame. There is no way that the cup of a tea light gets hot enough to ignite wood, polished or not.

The flame is a different matter. It will ignite flammable material which is in or close to the flame. That is, not separated from it by an insulating layer. When all the wax has gone the flame goes out. Quite often the flame goes out before the wax has all gone becasue of the way the wick burns away before the wax pool has all vapourised. I note the comments about reports of tea lights causing fires, but to say that the heat of a normal tea light resting on a flammable surface caused a fire is implausible. You can try resting one on the palm of your hand as it burns down to discover how unlikely that is.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't use glass cups in tea light holders, but criticism of those who don't should be based on science, not anecdote.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 23, 2015, 04:52:51 PM
I stand by my previous posting. There are as many different types of wood as there are turners to turn it. Just think of an ordinary piece of pine, probably under normal conditions it would not catch and burn that quickly but a piece with a little bit of extra pitch is slightly more dangerous. With other woods the more times the holder has supported a lit candle the more dry the wood is likely to be making it easier to catch. The other thing to consider is the different makes of candle, I have 2 bags of tea lights in my workshop and some are 15mm deep the others are only 12. That means that the user could put a shallower cup in a deeper hole, with a little bit of draught and dry wood the conditions are ripe for a catch.
    One last thing to consider, if you put a lit candle into a tent the flame burns up the oxygen and goes out, but before it goes out the flame shoots upwards sometimes to the ridge, now I'm not suggesting this would happen with a tea light for one minute but it does show the unpredicability of candles. Personally I will not take the risk and if I see anyone in a shop about to buy a tea light holder without a sensible barrier I will point it out to them regardless of who made it.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: bodrighywood on February 23, 2015, 06:56:22 PM
Whatever the science I have seen wood charred in candlesticks and t lights and as John said it isn't worth the risk. Science is great in ideal controlled circumstances but we need to make allowance for the unexpected.

Pete
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: seventhdevil on February 23, 2015, 07:18:37 PM
Spurred to curiosity by this thread, I tried a little experiment. I suspended a very thin, low-quality, tea light case above a tea light with the edge of the case in the hottest part of the flame (the tip, approx 1,000 deg C). The room was free of draughts. 1 hour later there was no sign of any melting, deformation or burning of the aluminium. It was too hot to touch, but as it hadn't melted, no part of it was above 600 deg C. Also, as there was no glow whatsoever, the temperature at the hottest point was less than 525 deg C - the starting temperature of incandescence.

In the real world the flame never touches the cup. The hottest part of the flame is about 1-1.5 cm above the melted wax pool, in free air. You can drip the melted wax onto your finger and although it is a bit painful, it doesn't do any damage. The wax pool does not normally reach the cup, although it might if the flame flickers in a draught, so there is, most of the time, a layer of insulation between the flame and the cup - candle wax. That insulator is itself a heat absorber since its ignition depends on it vapourising, so it absorbs the latent heat of vapourisation from the bottom of the flame. There is no way that the cup of a tea light gets hot enough to ignite wood, polished or not.

The flame is a different matter. It will ignite flammable material which is in or close to the flame. That is, not separated from it by an insulating layer. When all the wax has gone the flame goes out. Quite often the flame goes out before the wax has all gone becasue of the way the wick burns away before the wax pool has all vapourised. I note the comments about reports of tea lights causing fires, but to say that the heat of a normal tea light resting on a flammable surface caused a fire is implausible. You can try resting one on the palm of your hand as it burns down to discover how unlikely that is.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't use glass cups in tea light holders, but criticism of those who don't should be based on science, not anecdote.


the tip of that flame can not have been that hot as aluminium melts at around 660c.

strange that it didn't melt as candle flames are supposed to get up to 1400c.

i wonder if the wax in the candle burned at a lower temp?
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Les Symonds on February 23, 2015, 07:38:40 PM
........we need to make allowance for the unexpected.....
Pete
[/quote....and the stupid!
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Graham on February 23, 2015, 08:11:16 PM
Who was it that said.....
The whole world is stupid, except me and you.


and I am not to sure about you !!!
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 23, 2015, 08:32:44 PM
Ah Graham wasn't that our chap Shakespeare?....I thought he said..."all the world is strange my friend except you and I ..and even thou art a little queer!!" but as eng lit was never my subject I may be wrong.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Graham on February 23, 2015, 08:46:05 PM
:)
You may well be right John. I think there are several versions now and I wasn't about to tell anyone on here I thought they were queer  :)
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Paul Hannaby on February 24, 2015, 11:16:21 AM
Andygc, I think I would prefer to put my faith in the findings and experience of the fire service rather than your somewhat limited "science". As others have already said, not all tealights are the same so unless you have tested them all in a variety of situations, I don't think you are able to reach any meaningful conclusion.

History has shown that science has a habit of confounding even the best scientists!
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: TONY MALIN on February 24, 2015, 11:40:27 AM
I use the ones with batteries. Problem solved.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: happy amateur on February 24, 2015, 04:37:18 PM
Ah Graham wasn't that our chap Shakespeare?....I thought he said..."all the world is strange my friend except you and I ..and even thou art a little queer!!" but as eng lit was never my subject I may be wrong.
According to my computer it was Robert Owen

Fred
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Graham on February 24, 2015, 05:22:17 PM
The other one I like is...
 I know the world is full of idiots and I don't mind that, but why do they all gather around me ?
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: TWiG on February 24, 2015, 07:11:46 PM
This subject seems to re-appear regularly , ( I do not make candle holders of any sort ) however,  has the fire brigade actually attributed a turned wooden candle holder of any kind with a T -light in it  being responsible for a fire or just  T-lights themselves ,  possibly being placed too close to  flammable materials such as curtains , paper etc ..If the H&S deem T lights being safe by way of the foil cup then I would not criticise any  one selling such items .  Terry..
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 24, 2015, 08:59:39 PM
Aha! just looked up Robert Owen, spot on.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Les Symonds on February 24, 2015, 09:01:15 PM
Frankly, I'm shocked that we have so many contributors who still seem to think that it's ok to make/sell/use tea lights holders without a  non flammable interface. I don't care what 'science' is quoted herein; I will go with the experience and the advice of fire service departments throughout the UK.

Let's quote a couple of simple example....

...get real, people....stop taking risks with other people's lives. If you make tea-light holders, supply and fit a non-flammable interface.

Les
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Ollie on February 24, 2015, 09:07:38 PM
I would recommend LED tea lights. You can get them very cheap on ebay/amazon. If not you can get glass holders very cheaply from ikea. If you are really opposed to either you could just sell your holders without any candles and tell your customers to get glass liners like those from ikea?
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 24, 2015, 11:05:49 PM
The melting point of acrylic is approximately 100 degrees centigrade. Once it has melted and it comes into contact with a tea light flame, the flame temperature is sufficient to ignite it. I have not seen anybody suggesting making tea light holders from acrylic.

There is a detailed account of the ignition characteristics of various types of dry wood here www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplmisc/rpt1464.pdf. It considers temperature and the time at that temperature required for ignition to occur. If anybody feels that they have details of fire incidents relevant to wooden tea light holders, as opposed to plastic baths and televisions, perhaps they could provide links so that people can make decisions based on evidence, not anecdote.

Quoting fire incidents involving baths, televisions and window sills is not really relevant to wooden tea light holders. Just providing a list without a link to the original report is no more than providing anecdotes. I have asked my Fire and Rescue Service contact if he can point me to any relevant evidence, but I won't get a quick answer.

I don't mind in any way at all what other people choose to do. I just object to them telling me what I shouldn't do without producing the evidence to support what they are saying.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 25, 2015, 07:44:58 AM
What is that saying.

There is none so blind as them that will not see.

Regards George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 25, 2015, 08:52:49 AM
I've spent a professional lifetime assessing risk and making evidence-based decisions, and a few years managing an organization that daily did things far more dangerous to life than trying to set fire to a bit of seasoned oak with a small candle. I can see perfectly well, thank you.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Graham on February 25, 2015, 09:01:24 AM
There is also the business side of the equation of course. Maybe advertising a belt and braces approach would increase sales to those ( like me ) who are wary about such things.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 25, 2015, 09:34:02 AM
Graham, exactly. Professional turners must look to their market. That's why I wrote "I don't mind in any way at all what other people choose to do. I just object to them telling me what I shouldn't do without producing the evidence to support what they are saying." I turn for pleasure, not for a living. If I sell something it's for charity, and I make a point of not undercutting the prices I see professionals charging. I use tea light holders I've turned, so I know what happens to them, and I know they aren't dangerous to people I've given or sold them to. I don't see that there's any need for rudeness here like "There is none so blind as them that will not see."

Andy
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Graham on February 25, 2015, 10:17:05 AM
I don't see that there's any need for rudeness here like "There is none so blind as them that will not see."
Andy
Indeed.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: John D Smith on February 25, 2015, 02:26:55 PM
Hi Andy,
             I do not think George (GBF) was being rude for one minute but to me to use a Glass insert makes sense if there is a risk however small that may be and with a naked flame there must be a risk take precautions.Also it is wise to put a small warning label saying do not leave a naked light untended.

                                            Regards John
 
 
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Paul Hannaby on February 25, 2015, 06:15:57 PM
If you want a little light reading tonight, these might be of interest.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file21807.pdf (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file21807.pdf)
http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/tradingstandards/downloads/candlesafety.pdf (http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/tradingstandards/downloads/candlesafety.pdf)
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090609003228/http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file22713.pdf (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090609003228/http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file22713.pdf)

Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 25, 2015, 10:13:26 PM
My Fire and Rescue Service contact spoke to me tonight, sooner than I expected. He is a recently-retired deputy chief fire officer. I explained that the point of issue was the safety of wooden tea light holders, specifically the type I have made and which he has seen, which is a spindle-turned block of wood with a close-fitting hole for the tea light, with no liner.

He told me that he was well aware of the dangers of tea lights and had been directly involved in a tea light television fire which resulted in fatalities. He said, emphatically, that there was no risk of my type of tea light holder causing a fire and that wood was the best material to use to separare a tea light from a television. He commented that tea light fires are the result of the way candles are used, not the result of a wooden holder catching fire. He also commented that wood has a relatively low flammability in house fires - that is, compared with other materials found in houses.

I regret that I cannot provide a written statement to this effect, so I suppose this post has to be regarded as anecdote. I am content that I have taken well-qualified advice, so I am happy to continue doing what I do, thus saving the additional cost of glass inserts.

----------------------------------

People might be interested in a commentary by a professional woodturner on YouTube.  Search for "a word about tea light candle safety"
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 25, 2015, 10:55:08 PM
Reminds me of the mother that went to watch her son in his passing out parade.She said I was so proud there was hundreds of men marching and my son was the only one in step.

Regards George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 26, 2015, 08:39:18 AM
Reminds me of the mother that went to watch her son in his passing out parade.She said I was so proud there was hundreds of men marching and my son was the only one in step.

Regards George
I have difficulty understanding what value you believe you are adding to this thread.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 26, 2015, 08:43:43 AM
Lighten up don't take life so seriously.
I gave my opinion earlier in the thread that in my opinion you should use  some sort of protection.
Another reason I use the glass inserts is because it makes the t light holder look better.
Also when your prospective customer looks at you T light holder they can see you have considered their safety

Regards George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 26, 2015, 09:13:54 AM
Lighten up don't take life so seriously.
I have already said that I have no wish to tell other people what to do. I really don't care what you choose to do; if you want to work in a particular way for what you consider to be good commercial reasons I will not criticise you. Because of the comments posted on this topic, I went to an authoritative source to check that what I choose to do is safe, and I now know that it is. Having discovered that, I posted the information here on the basis that others might find it helpful.

Your recent contributions have been asinine and offensive comments, and telling me to "lighten up" falls into that category. I don't understand why you chose to make them, and can only assume that it is because I am new here and you are not. I don't like being patronised, and I don't like smug self-satisfaction and arrogance. I had thought the AWGB and this forum to be intended to welcome new entrants to woodturning and to encourage their knowledge and development of skills. It seems I was mistaken.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: John D Smith on February 26, 2015, 09:23:16 AM
Hi Andy,
             I have been into woodturning for a number of years now and I have never found such a helpful bunch of people always willing to help and give advice not like some trades who every thing is a guarded secret.

So how about now let us draw a line under this topic and start again " Welcome To The Forum"

                                               Regards John
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 26, 2015, 09:25:47 AM
Thank you John.

Regards George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andygc on February 26, 2015, 09:27:41 AM
Hi Andy,
             I have been into woodturning for a number of years now and I have never found such a helpful bunch of people always willing to help and give advice not like some trades who every thing is a guarded secret.

So how about now let us draw a line under this topic and start again " Welcome To The Forum"

                                               Regards John
Thank you for that welcome. However, while you were writing it I got this
Stop feeling sorry for yourself your acting like a spoiled child
which just serves to confirm the impression.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 26, 2015, 09:32:50 AM
Pasting PM's on Forums is a big NO NO.
I stand by what I said.
You are obviously trying to cause trouble.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 26, 2015, 09:55:47 AM
There was a time when you could not only help members on these Forums and have a bit of fun at the same time.Not anymore too many are so full of themselves and their own importance .Get offended and cry like little girls.
I really cant be bothered anymore and am deleting my membership.
I will see some of you at Yandles as usual

Regards George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: TONY MALIN on February 26, 2015, 10:48:46 AM
Sadly my wife can't bear to see grown men cry!

For crying out loud George where's the stiff upper lip gone to?

When people react the wrong way to a bit of light hearted banter it reflects badly on them.

Do we all really want to become boring old farts, like the members of John Major's cabinet?
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: John D Smith on February 26, 2015, 10:49:31 AM
Hi George,
              I guess you wont get to read this message now you have resigned from the Forum In my opinion you have given a great input to this Forum

with advice and help to members Ok we all ruffle peoples feathers now and then but I like to think we are grown up enough to take criticism I and

many others know you have put a great amount into Woodturning both at club level and anyone who as asked you for advice.It seems to me you  

always get the blame but it takes two to Tango.See you at Yandles Spring Show

                                                         Regards John

The previous message from Tony was posted while I was writing mine I agree with you 100% Tony come back George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: GBF on February 26, 2015, 11:21:05 AM
Thank you Tony and John.

I had pressed and confirmed the delete account button but have reversed it for the time being.I am pretty thick skinned Tony and never take offense at peoples comments but there just does not seem to be room for any fun on the Forum anymore people seem too quick to take offense at light hearted banter.
Has everybody lost their sense of humor.
It has been possible to reverse my decision  to delete my account and I have done it because I have received a number of Emails asking me to change my mind I will wait and see what happens.
Those of you that have sent me Emails I wont name you but thank you they are very much appreciated.
I expect to be banned anyway

Regards George
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 26, 2015, 12:17:52 PM
george you should use what I call the get out of jail free card. Use lots of these  :D :D :D :D and these  ;) ;) ;) and these  ;D ;D
But you are right, on occasions you need to use lots of these  ::) ::) ::) and sometimes these are more appropriate  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: georg on February 26, 2015, 02:04:41 PM

 Normally I never comment on the discussion page as like GBF my wording can be a bit Robust to say the least.

 Over some of the past discussions on this forum a lot of statements have been taken out of context and turned to be offensive.

 I know at my own club I am asked if I went to far when doing my demo, But that's the way I talk.

 I ask the Question is political correctness been taken too far considering we are all adults.

 Ps  At one club I demo  one guy checks every long word I say on google to give me the correct oxford meaning.
     Luckily I don't know many long words.

              TONY DAVIS     
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: farmerphil on February 26, 2015, 03:28:51 PM
I have no point to add to the original question posed on the thread so I apologise for this,however, another interesting topic discussion has been overrun by either touchy comments being made or people getting touchy by comments made.

Whether comments are or aren't being taken out of context it does seem that offence has been taken in this and other threads. This is not just a forum for debate amongst professional and amateur woodturners but also a public forum and alongside other social media what may be considered acceptable in a private conversation may not seem appropriate on a public forum so rather than "has political correctness gone too far" maybe we should be a bit more careful of entries so as to be respectful to our colleagues and the wider audience?
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andersonec on February 26, 2015, 06:48:12 PM
Safe, more attractive and with some added value, it's a win win situation.

Andy

Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 26, 2015, 08:04:02 PM
Andy I think you have a winning combination there , well done.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: bodrighywood on February 26, 2015, 08:05:20 PM
Keep your eye open in charity shops as well as you often find the glass inserts there in those styles.

Pete
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Graham on February 26, 2015, 08:11:48 PM
You should always keep your eyes open in charity shops







Otherwise you knock stuff over.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Ollie on February 27, 2015, 08:05:03 PM
Although it is unlikely to happen it is probably worth including the inserts if you are selling candle holders just to cover yourself. I am a trainee solicitor currently working in Professional Indemnity insurance. Trust me, if someone can bring a claim, they will!
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: The Bowler Hatted Turner on February 27, 2015, 08:51:32 PM
Ollie thanks for that, welcome to the forum. you can be our legal beagle!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: andersonec on February 28, 2015, 03:25:57 PM
Although it is unlikely to happen it is probably worth including the inserts if you are selling candle holders just to cover yourself. I am a trainee solicitor currently working in Professional Indemnity insurance. Trust me, if someone can bring a claim, they will!

And don't we know it, every day we are bombarded with adverts by claim firms telling you how much they want to serve you and how much they want to get you some money, did your child get their finger trapped in a desk lid, sue the school; fell over? sue someone, what I don't understand is what happens when you hurt yourself at home? someone must be to blame so why not claim? short time ago someone tried to sue their mother because she smoked while she was pregnant  :-\

Andy
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: rick_dobney on February 28, 2015, 11:12:33 PM
Hello All

Went to Ikea last weekend to buy some tea light holders http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/00114167/ (http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/00114167/), they're great value at £2 for a pack of 12, so the web site and catalogue says.
I thought this was a small price to pay to make sure my tea light turnings are as safe as is practical. Sadly, when I got there, I was advised by the sales assistant that they no longer stock them in all but the London store or on-line, apparently they're too small to stock !?!??!??! I found this hard to believe but what could I do.....order on-line and stomach the £9 delivery charge (I bought other items too). Just thought I'd save those of you who believe in an extra layer of safety a trip to the nearest Ikea if that's all you're going for.

Cheers
Rick
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: bodrighywood on February 28, 2015, 11:51:59 PM
Check out on ebay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-GLIMMA-Glass-Tea-Light-Holder-Party-Candle-Holders-Wedding-Tealight/371269719129?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107083358%26meid%3Debeccadcf35c4c78a93826885e3bf951%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D7%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D171198028355)

Pete
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: rick_dobney on March 01, 2015, 12:21:30 AM
Agreed, you can buy off ebay but most sellers are 'profiteering', £2 from Ikea, £7.99 for the same item & qty off eBay....just be careful.
Title: Re: What price safety
Post by: Ollie on March 01, 2015, 08:21:31 AM
Thanks for the welcome TBHT. Andy - best one I have come across so far. My wife works in defendant noise induced hearing loss claims. She had one claim from a librarian claiming she got hearing loss as a result of the photocopier!!!!